I would love to see some of that evidence.

Well, humans sometimes kill their young, roll in or eat excrement, have intercourse with numerous partners, and some engage in cannibalism...too.

And, of course, Man is a member species within the animal kingdom...no matter how hard you try to not be called an "animal."

(Chimps have demonstrated highly emotional responses to events within their societies whereby their society's social rights and wrongs have been tested. But, I guess to you, chimps are still just "animals" because they don't know right from wrong within their own societies. )

Another problem I see here is anthropomorphism.


It’s human nature to “project” ourselves and our feelings, emotions, thoughts, etc. onto animals. We all do it, especially those of us who have pets.


But in reality, most animals don’t have a “sexuality” in the same manner we do. For most species, sex is merely another mechanical function – and often one that takes place only under specific conditions.


Take dogs, for example. Unless a bitch is in heat, she couldn’t care less about sex. Likewise a male dog, unless and until he smells a bitch in heat, really doesn’t think about sex.


Or another species I’m somewhat familiar with – Rocky Mountain Elk.
90 percent of the year, they are completely asexual beings. But late in the summer/early in the fall, the “rut” occurs. Then the bulls especially become massive balls of SEX… everything they do for those few weeks centers around finding fertile cows and fending off other bulls. The youngest, smallest bulls are basically out of luck – no sex for them. Medium-sized or “satellite” bulls might pick up a few cows which the most dominant, or “herd” bulls reject – for whatever reason.
But, once the rut is over and sex has served its purpose, it again become a gigantic non-factor in their lives.


Many bird species will pair off for companionship/raising the young.. .but again, unless it’s specifically the mating season… sex really isn’t a factor in their lives.


In short, many animals get horny only once a year. And in most cases, only the dominant ones actually get to have sex at all. So, projecting the complexities, desires and needs of human sexuality on animals might not be very accurate

I wish I got horny only once a year... As it stand it seems to be the opposite... I am only NOT horny once a year...

There is no society today in which homosexuals do not experience social rejection or bigotry. There are societies which have legalized same-sex marriage, but even there, social rejection and bigotry against homosexuals is widespread. Depression is most often caused by a lack of social acceptance, and we have every reason to believe that this is the case for homosexuals.

Further, even if homosexuality did increase rate of depression (which it does not), understand that depression is a negative condition affecting only oneself. Since people should have the freedom to choose what to do to themselves, homosexuality would still be considered moral.

Bear with me here Jaaaman and others. I just thought to remark:

I had many guinea pigs in my life. And they did eat their feces. You see, their body actually produced a much needed nutrient that was only found in their fecal pellets.

So like animals, humans too do that which is borne out of need. And whereas humans do not eat their waste, there is no need to. But to compare such behaviors in the animal kingdom with man, we must admit that we all do that which is essential to our lives. And to the degree that we are instinctively and inspirationally and intelligently recognizing need and finding need met.

And sex according to one's orientation fits in that perspective.

OD

"There is no society today in which homosexuals do not experience social rejection or bigotry."

A better way to put that is there is no society where the don't experience at least SOME DEGREE of rejection. It varies. In some, they dare not be discovered, lest they be killed. In many others, there lot is no worse than, say, chubby people or short, bald guys.

"There are societies which have legalized same-sex marriage, but even there, social rejection and bigotry against homosexuals is widespread."

I question that. I live in one of the most conservative areas of the U.S. I lived in a small town in Montana once where the owners of one of the most popular bars were a pair of lesbians. They did rather well.

"Depression is most often caused by a lack of social acceptance, and we have every reason to believe that this is the case for homosexuals."

I don't agree.
Being "bummed out" can be caused by social rejection. I expereinced plenty of social rejection growing up. I'm not homosexual, but growing up I was small in stature and I was/am rather eccentric. That can be a social "death sentence" in Jr. High/High school. Anyway, not asking for a pity party, I'm just saying I'm quite well-versed in social rejection and what it feels like.

Clinical depression can have a myriad of causes... at its root, it's bio-chemical. It's something else entirely. For example, Winston Churchill was hardly a social reject, but he suffered from near-crippling bouts with depression.

"Further, even if homosexuality did increase rate of depression (which it does not)," that's debatable... I don't think you can state that as an axiom.


"understand that depression is a negative condition affecting only oneself."

It can affect one's productivity, parenting abilities, social skills... and on and on.

"Since people should have the freedom to choose what to do to themselves, homosexuality would still be considered moral."

I whole-heartedly agree that everybody should have the freedom to choose, in general secual society. However, that requires that secular society be neutral toward morality.

I disagree with your claim that in some societies, homosexuality is considered no worse than being chubby, short, or bald. Homosexuality is looked upon by people as a sin. There are people in every society who think that homosexuals are evil, and they should be treated as lustful sinners. This is far different from some physical trait which is beyond your control and which isn't viewed as evil.

In just about every case, if your family or your friends find out you're going bald or gaining weight, they're supportive of you. But there are many cases, in any society, where if your family or friends find out you're homosexual, you are rejected and faced with no social support. As I said, the situation is completely different.

Now, obviously many people may view homosexuals as completely equal to everyone else. But every society contains many people who think the way I'm describing.

I'm not saying homosexuals can't do well, and I'm not saying they can't be liked by many people. Of course they can. What I'm saying is that I'll bet there were quite a few people who didn't approve of the owners of that bar because they are homosexual, and though that rejection may not have had a negative impact on these two people, it does have a negative impact on some people, especially when the people rejecting them are close.

But many children are depressed because of social rejection in high school.

Okay, maybe I'm simplifying things too much. I say that rejection causes depression in almost every case, but it's probably not the only cause in every case. Let me see what Wikipedia has to say about this...

Okay, let's examine this: Clinical depression - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

We can see that there are several physiological causes, none of which appear to be related to homosexuality, and then we look down at the sociopsychological causes, and things begin to become more clear. Wikipedia claims that there are three sociopsychological causes of depression:

Low self-esteem, rejection or psychological abuse at an early age, and traumatic life experiences. In a society which does not approve of homosexuality, we should expect homosexuals to be faced with both low self-esteem and traumatic life experiences, and it's not completely out of the question that he might experience rejection at an early age. This is exactly the sort of situation that we would expect causes higher rates of depression.

I don't mean to state it as an axiom. I mean to reinforce my claim that, based on my logic presented above, it is the only rational conclusion.

And if anyone could show that higher rates of depression in homosexuals were causing children of gay couples to suffer more than children of straight couples, then you might have a point. However, every reputable study on this subject suggests that children of gay couples fare as well or better than children of straight couples.

Using these studies, I might go so far as to suggest that being straight is harmful to your children. But really, I think it's a bit of a stretch to use the minor benefits suggested in these studies as a reason to call straight couples inferior. Similarly, I think it's a bit of a stretch to imply that depressed people are raising their children poorly, and it's an even further stretch to suggest that higher rates of depression in homosexuals has put children raised by homosexuals at some sort of disadvantage.


A gay person who is faced with rejection by his peers is more likely to be depressed, but some gay people are very happy with their lives and simply aren't at any risk of depression.

So we shouldn't look down upon those gay people who are happy with their lives. And as for any gay people who are depressed, we need to actually figure out the real causes of that depression.

We can't just say, "statistics show that gay people are more likely to be depressed, and therefore being gay causes depression." That's confusing correlation and causation. It's like saying that claim that pirates stop global warming:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...SM_Pirates.jpg

When we find a correlation, assuming causation is often-times ridiculous. We have to look for a logical explanation of that correlation. I have presented such an explanation. Is there any logical reason to believe I am wrong? Is there any logical reason to believe that being gay might be a root cause of depression? I say there is no such reason.

In some sense I disagree: people may begin to believe that allowing others the freedom to choose is morality.

Now why did you have to go and do this CF...now Gary is going to tweak over this all..

actually, that IS true....

GAY.COM UK & Ireland - News - Headlines - Study: “Hostile society leads to gay depression”

as a general rule, social rejection would cause low self-esteem making it more LIKELY that you'd be depressed. (not just for gays, but for *all* people... gays just tend to experience social rejection with more frequency.)


of course, as all reasonable people know, statistics don't apply to individuals.