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Gay Marriage Debate and defend your political beliefs as to whether or not marriage should be only defined as a union between a man and a woman.

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Old 06-26-2007, 11:38 AM   #11 (permalink)
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Foundit,
Thank you for your kind words. I would say the same about the gay people on this board. I can think of at least one other debate board I've participated in where there's a gang of gays and their close supporters who have sort of a schoolyard bully mentality and will flame, dog-pile and even go so far as to stalk people who post the "wrong" opinon on homosexuality. But I don't think they're that way because they're gay. I think it's because they are a small group of people who can be bitter and mean-spirited, and irresponsible moderators let them get away with it.

"Defending the Truth" is a breath of fresh air, IMO.

Anyway, on that other forum I've lost my temper and been less than polite. Here, I've tried to avoid doing that. For starters, being rude and combative really isn't in my nature, unless it's tounge-in-cheek.


"Most experiences involve people who insist that gays must be miserable being gay, because they think so and can't fathom the opposite being true. People who insist that gays are all bed-hopping sex-crazed nymphos. People who insist that gays have selfish motivations for adopting, instead of a desire to nurture a child like heterosexuals who want to adopt. People who insist that gays are gay just to piss off straight people..."


Yeah, I've seen that movie too. It's sometimes very difficult for people to deal with shades of gray.
If at first you don’t succeed – try, try again and then quit. There’s no sense in making a damned fool of yourself. – W.C. Fields

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Old 06-26-2007, 02:09 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mytmouse57 View Post
"how does one question the "morality" of somebody's existence?"

Would you consider polygamy to be immoral?

no

And, if so, could you be tolerant toward consenting adults who chose to be in plural marriages?

the way other people choose to lead their lives (marriage-wise) doesn't affect me and my family. I may not choose to engage in the behaviour - but that doesn't mean that I want to deny others what I choose not to do.

People are people... this much is (I think) painfully obvious. But that doesn't mean we have to agree all the time on everything people do.
I don't see that sexual orientation is the same thing as behaviour. People who are gay are gay even if they're virgins. I have no problem criticizing promiscuous and dangerous behaviour whether the perp is gay or straight.

By they way - I'd like to add my agreement to foundit's observation of your civility - you're never hateful or mean spirited when discussing this issue.
*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*

Conservatism: Self-centered mean-spiritedness fueled by ignorance and misguided self-importance.

Bigotry is a social disease.

Legalized same-sex marriage almost certainly benefits those same-sex couples who choose to marry, as well as the children being raised in those homes. - David Blankenhorn is president of the New York-based Institute for American Values and the author of "The Future of Marriage."
Old 06-26-2007, 02:21 PM   #13 (permalink)
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I disagree with your last statement.

1) Regarding "prejudice", I wonder how you define the word. What constitutes "prejudice" in your book?
For me, "prejudice" is demonstrated in a desire to discriminate against a group.
If somebody questions the morality of homosexuality, but does not want homosexuals to have inferior rights or privileges, then I would agree that they are not prejudiced.
But there are a LOT who have issues with the "morality" of homosexuality who go the extra step of insisting that gays should not be able to serve in the military, or be able to adopt, or be able to have their unions see the same rights and privileges as straight marriages.

And those people are wrong. The problem is that there are a lot of people on both sides that are quite militant about it. Like a lot of topics. Religion, race relations, abortion, even whether or not we are omnivorous.

2) "particularly ignorant".
Not in my experience. In fact, discussing with a LOT of them I have found that they wantonly assume what is convenient about gays to justify their own conclusions, and gays telling them how they ACTUALLY live is irrelevant in the equation. Purposeful and stubborn ignorance.
I feel I should interject that you mytmouse are an incredible rarity in my experience. You have proven capable of discussing this issue with a rationality and civility that I have not experienced that often. You are seriously a breath of fresh air, and are nowhere near an example of what I am talking about.

And the same holds true that some gay people think that anyone who is against gay marriage is against homosexuality in general or that they hate homosexuals. And that also is not the case all the time. Some people find it difficult to set aside personal biases and discuss it as an abstract topic.

Most experiences involve people who insist that gays must be miserable being gay, because they think so and can't fathom the opposite being true. People who insist that gays are all bed-hopping sex-crazed nymphos. People who insist that gays have selfish motivations for adopting, instead of a desire to nurture a child like heterosexuals who want to adopt. People who insist that gays are gay just to piss off straight people...
I could go on and on, but that is a list of some of the things which I classify as "ignorant", to give you a more thorough explanation for why I said the above.

And when you approach a debate with that frame of mind, it becomes obvious to the person you are speaking to.
I'm sure most of us can agree that the human body is set up to be omnivorous. Maybe not to the degree we have made ourselves these days with grocery stores and industrial farming, but for the most part humans are set up to be able the digest meat and veggies. Could you imagine a debate about the morality of eating meat with someone like this?
http://www.viva.org.uk/goingveggie/top20.html
That would make for hours and hours of typing.
Old 06-26-2007, 02:53 PM   #14 (permalink)
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You know, gary, if you are going to pretend you are someone else, you really should change your posting style.
Old 06-26-2007, 02:58 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mytmouse57 View Post
Foundit,
Thank you for your kind words. I would say the same about the gay people on this board. I can think of at least one other debate board I've participated in where there's a gang of gays and their close supporters who have sort of a schoolyard bully mentality and will flame, dog-pile and even go so far as to stalk people who post the "wrong" opinon on homosexuality. But I don't think they're that way because they're gay. I think it's because they are a small group of people who can be bitter and mean-spirited, and irresponsible moderators let them get away with it.

"Defending the Truth" is a breath of fresh air, IMO.

Anyway, on that other forum I've lost my temper and been less than polite. Here, I've tried to avoid doing that. For starters, being rude and combative really isn't in my nature, unless it's tounge-in-cheek.


"Most experiences involve people who insist that gays must be miserable being gay, because they think so and can't fathom the opposite being true. People who insist that gays are all bed-hopping sex-crazed nymphos. People who insist that gays have selfish motivations for adopting, instead of a desire to nurture a child like heterosexuals who want to adopt. People who insist that gays are gay just to piss off straight people..."


Yeah, I've seen that movie too. It's sometimes very difficult for people to deal with shades of gray.
Could you PM me the url of that forum? Sounds like my kinda place. I've felt barraged here before. It was kind of overwhelming at first. Now I view it as a challenge.
Old 06-26-2007, 03:02 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by knot_e_lady View Post
You know, gary, if you are going to pretend you are someone else, you really should change your posting style.
I have to repeat, I'm not Gary. I've read some of Gary's posts and there are distinct differences in our style. And there are those here that know I'm not him. But if you choose to believe that, it's up to you. Since this is the internet, does it really matter though?
Old 06-26-2007, 03:05 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fxashun View Post
I have to repeat, I'm not Gary. I've read some of Gary's posts and there are distinct differences in our style. And there are those here that know I'm not him. But if you choose to believe that, it's up to you. Since this is the internet, does it really matter though?
I believe that you are NOT Gary, but rather think that the comment was made to Alias1.
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Old 06-26-2007, 03:07 PM   #18 (permalink)
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"I have no problem criticizing promiscuous and dangerous behaviour whether the perp is gay or straight."

You're preaching to the chior on that one. I've known "slutty" people of both genders and various sexual orientations. Not good, any way you slice it. It shows a recklessness and a lack of self-respect.

And thanks for your compliments. I think most everybody here is pretty civil.

I credit my parents for teaching me how to be civil (most of the time... LOL)
If at first you don’t succeed – try, try again and then quit. There’s no sense in making a damned fool of yourself. – W.C. Fields

Old 06-27-2007, 06:50 AM   #19 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Varuna View Post
Homophobics should be treated for their illness.

Racism, homophobia are mental illness? - Homeland Stupidity

Some practitioners are seeking to study whether pathological bias, such as severe racism or homophobia, constitutes a. Such a decision would have far-ranging consequences both in mental health practice and the criminal justice system.

And in the California prison system, psychiatrists are already treating pathological bias with anti-psychotic drugs.
Consider the stories of these people from the Washington Post. The full article is worth a read, but here are some choice cuts.
The 48-year-old man turned down a job because he feared that a co-worker would be gay. He was upset that gay culture was becoming mainstream and blamed most of his personal, professional and emotional problems on the gay and lesbian movement.
These fixations preoccupied him every day. Articles in magazines about gays made him agitated. He confessed that his fears had left him socially isolated and unemployed for years: A recovering alcoholic, the man even avoided 12-step meetings out of fear he might encounter a gay person.
“He had a fixed delusion about the world,” said Sondra E. Solomon, a at the University of Vermont who treated the man for two years. “He felt under attack, he felt threatened.” — Washington Post
But psychiatrists already know how to treat disorders where people believe things that aren’t true, raising the question of whether a new classification of mental illness is needed at all.
“If you are going to put racism into the next edition of DSM, you would have enormous criticism,” [Darrel A.] Regier [director of research for the American Psychological Association] said. Critics would ask, “‘Are you pathologizing all of life?’ You better be prepared to defend that classification.”
“I think it’s absurd,” said Sally Satel, a psychiatrist and the author of “PC, M.D.: How Political Correctness Is Corrupting Medicine.” Satel said the diagnosis would allow hate-crime perpetrators to evade responsibility by claiming they suffered from a mental illness. “You could use it as a defense.”
Psychiatrists who advocate a new diagnosis, such as Gary Belkin, deputy chief of psychiatry at New York’s Bellevue, said social norms play a central role in how all psychiatric disorders are defined. Pedophilia is considered a disorder by psychiatrists, Belkin noted, but that does not keep child molesters from being prosecuted.
“Psychiatrists who are uneasy with including something like this in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual need to get used to the fact that the whole manual reflects social context,” said Belkin, who is planning to launch a study on pathological bias among patients at his hospital. “That is true ofon down. Pathological bias is no more or less scientific than major depression.” — Ibid.
And besides, most of the people psychiatrists see aren’t engaging in criminal behavior.
Rather, they are like the young woman in Los Angeles who thought Jews were diseased and would infect her — she carried out compulsive cleansing rituals and hit her head to drive away her obsessions. She realized she needed help but was afraid her therapist would be Jewish, said [Edward] Dunbar, a Los Angeles psychologist who has amassed several case studies and treated several dozen patients for racial paranoia and other forms of what he considers pathological bias.
Another patient was a waiter so hostile to black people that he flung plates on the table when he served black patrons and got fired from multiple jobs.
A third patient was a Vietnam War veteran who was so fearful of Asians that he avoided social situations where he might meet them, Dunbar said.
“When I see someone who won’t see a physician because they’re Jewish, or who can’t sit in a restaurant because there are Asians, or feels threatened by homosexuals in the, the party line in mental health says, ‘This is not our problem,’” the psychologist said. “If it’s not our problem, whose problem is it?”
. . . But [Alvin F.] Poussaint [professor of at Harvard Medical School] said there is a difference between ordinary prejudice and pathological bias — the same distinction that psychiatrists make between sadness and depression. All people experience sadness, and fear, but extreme, disabling forms of these emotions are called disorders.
While people with ordinary prejudice try very hard to conceal their biases, Solomon said, her homophobic patient had no embarrassment about his attitude toward gays. Dunbar said people with pathological prejudice often lack filtering capabilities. As a result, he said, they face problems at work and home.
“Everyone is inculcated with stereotypes and biases with cultural issues, but some individuals not only hold beliefs that are very rigid, but they are part of a psychological problem,” Dunbar said.
The psychologist said he has helped such patients with talk therapy, which encourages patients to question the basis for their beliefs, and by steering them towardsuch as antipsychotics.
The woman with the bias against Jews did not overcome her prejudice, Dunbar said, but she learned to control her fear response in social settings. The patient with hostility against African Americans realized his beliefs were “stupid.” — Ibid.
And in the California prison system, extreme racism or homophobia will get you medicated.
Doctors who treat inmates at the California State Prison outside Sacramento concur: They have diagnosed some forms of racist hatred among inmates and administered antipsychotic drugs.
“We treat racism and homophobia as delusional disorders,” said Shama Chaiken, who later became a divisional chief psychologist for the California Department of Corrections, at a meeting of the American Association. “Treatment with antipsychotics does work to reduce these prejudices.” — Ibid.
Can we give anti-psychotic drugs to Republicans? They are pathological liars.
Old 06-27-2007, 07:50 AM   #20 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by billybobama View Post
Can we give anti-psychotic drugs to Republicans? They are pathological liars.
Isn't that pretty much politicians in general now? If ever we needed an honest third party this is the time. We need someone who will avoid supporting either side of the abortion and gay rights issues and really run this country for a few years. As far as I'm concerned the last thing the president of this country should be worrying about right now is an indivual citizens rights and deal with the economic and international relations problems we have now.

ahem.
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