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Gay Marriage Debate and defend your political beliefs as to whether or not marriage should be only defined as a union between a man and a woman.

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Old 11-19-2007, 08:04 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fxashun View Post
But at some point you have to determine as a society what is morally acceptable and what isn't.

Prostitution, gambling, statutory laws, and bestiality laws all are really based on a moral code. There is and always will be a segment of the population that feels that any laws forbidding those acts are "forcing someones view of morality" on them.
Would you then consider that, because the majority of Germans agreed, that discrimination against Jews was moral?
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Old 11-19-2007, 08:07 PM   #12 (permalink)
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...and Catholics, and gypsies, and gays, and the handicapped

once bigots get a toehold, there's no holding them back
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Conservatism: Self-centered mean-spiritedness fueled by ignorance and misguided self-importance.

Bigotry is a social disease.
Old 11-19-2007, 08:20 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katczinsky View Post
Would you then consider that, because the majority of Germans agreed, that discrimination against Jews was moral?
Why does everyone always go to the Jews? We have several countries that forbid homosexual acts right now. If we can decide that we want to prosecute zoophiles and some states want to execute people for pedophillic acts, that is much more relevant. What the Germans did could more be likened to the beginning of our own country and what our founding fathers did to the American Indians. Simply eradicating a race of people because you didn't want them there is a bit different than prosecuting people for actions you find detestable.
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Old 11-19-2007, 09:40 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fxashun View Post
I still can't fathom how a practicing homosexual can consider themselves a "Christian".
It's quite simple. A Christian is simply defined as someone who believes in Christ.

If you are going to start calling anyone who sins by Biblical definition not a Christian, then there are no Christians. Even "Gary" will tell you that we are all sinners.
Old 11-19-2007, 10:38 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Quote:
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Why does everyone always go to the Jews?
Oh, you were expressing ethical relativism (morality is an agreed upon set of rules); I was just asking you if it was possible that a minority of people can hold a moral truth against others.

Quote:
We have several countries that forbid homosexual acts right now. If we can decide that we want to prosecute zoophiles and some states want to execute people for pedophillic acts, that is much more relevant. What the Germans did could more be likened to the beginning of our own country and what our founding fathers did to the American Indians. Simply eradicating a race of people because you didn't want them there is a bit different than prosecuting people for actions you find detestable.
I actually don't see that much of a difference at all; it's just that one was taken to the extreme. Both acts of discrimination are fueled by a sense of detest against the said group. That is, homophobia and racism against Indians are very similar in that, the racist (or homophobe) uses differences (real or imagined) in the racist's favor and at the expense of the victim, by assigning value to those differences in order to dehumanize the victim and justify oppression.

You see these differences pointed out by homophobes all the time (and usually they're imagined); including association of AIDS with gays, 'unnatural detestableness', dirty, immoral, unchristian, etc. Then of course the homophobe always assigns value to these differences (by stressing their 'backwardness' and moral inferiority) in order to justify the homophobe's injustice. Incidentally, such associations I listed above have been used in past and present racism against blacks and others in attempting to rationalize oppression.
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Last edited by Katczinsky; 11-19-2007 at 10:47 PM.
Old 11-19-2007, 10:47 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Quote:
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Who cares what the scriptures say?

Christians and Jews care. And muslims view the Bible with the utmost respect

Do you, as a rational thinking thing, see homosexuality as wrong or acceptable? Actually, that doesn't matter anyway; ask yourself whether you think it is acceptable for you to force your view of morality on to others.
That's a very complex question.

In reality we are all beholden to certain commonly-held norms and values forced on us by others, such as the prohibition on public nudity or public sex acts.

In the case of homosexuality, I stand my ground regarding my views on its immorality, but I cannot and wouldn't want to enforce that legally - unlike public nudity.

Having said that, I'm not prepared to have others force their moral views on me by redefining marriage. And most Americans agree with my position on that.
Old 11-19-2007, 10:49 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katczinsky View Post
Oh, you were expressing ethical relativism (morality is an agreed upon set of rules); I was just asking you if it was possible that a minority of people can hold a moral truth against others.



I actually don't see that much of a difference at all; it's just that one was taken to the extreme. Both acts of discrimination are fueled by a sense of detest against the said group. That is, homophobia and racism against Indians are very similar in that, the racist (or homophobe) uses differences (real or imagined) in the racist's favor and at the expense of the victim, by assigning value to those differences in order to dehumanize the victim and justify oppression.

You see these differences pointed out by homophobes all the time (and usually they're imagined); including association of AIDS with gays, 'unnatural detestableness', dirty, immoral, unchristian, etc. Then of course the homophobe always assigns value to these differences (by stressing their 'backwardness' and moral inferiority) in order to justify the homophobe's injustice. Incidentally, such associations I listed above have been used in past and present racism against blacks and others in attempting to rationalize oppression.
Do you consider legally enforced moral views on prostitution or public nudity to be "oppression" of prostitutes or nudists?
Old 11-19-2007, 10:50 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by tristanrobin View Post
...and Catholics, and gypsies, and gays, and the handicapped

once bigots get a toehold, there's no holding them back
Does this include homosexual bigots?
Old 11-19-2007, 10:58 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by garysher View Post
Do you consider legally enforced moral views on prostitution or public nudity to be "oppression" of prostitutes or nudists?
Irrelevant, both of these strawman examples are potentially infringing onto others; there's nothing harmful to others when two consenting adults of the same sex want to love each other and enjoy equality under the law.
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Last edited by Katczinsky; 11-19-2007 at 11:00 PM.
Old 11-20-2007, 06:48 AM   #20 (permalink)
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Exactly. As long as it is two consenting adults, it doesn't matter what they do in the privacy of the bedroom. And let's not forget some of the other prohibitions in the bible, that call other behaviors immoral. Like premarital sex, adultery, etc. I don't see people in this country out protesting those behaviors.

And I don't consider it oppressive to ban public nudity, however, there is no reason to ban it in private areas. And I do feel that banning prostitution is oppressive to the women who decide to be prostitutes. There should be legalised prostitution, taxes paid on it, and medical care required.
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