Gay marriage ban efforts in CA about to fail

fxashun · 04-27-2008, 07:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deekers79

My apologies, fxashun. I came upon this string while searching for something else on Google, and I didn't realize it was part of a much longer debate. I suppose the only purpose of the post now is that some rebellious teenager might happen upon it and decide he's not so rebellious after all.

Also, I'd forgotten that all hard science is seen as an "excuse" by a lot of traditionalists. I suppose the laws of gravity are just excuses used by people who won't accept that God keeps us secured to the planet himself, because he loves us. Or better yet, space exploration is an abomination because God included gravity as part of his original creation. And anything man does that defies God's intention on Earth is sinful.

Unfortunately, I also believe that God created our brains and gave us reason and the ability to learn. I also believe that he expects us to use that reason and ability to learn, not just take everything we've been told on faith.

And thank you, tristan, for the welcome. I've had similar long-winded debates on other sites. I'll agree that it gets difficult to make any argument against the statements: "Things are the way they are because that's the way they are, and things should stay the way they are just because that's how they've always been."

So much damage has been and is being caused by those ideas.

Welcome. It's always great to have a new voice on the site.

And you are mistaken if you think I am a traditionalist, but I am a believer in what you consider "hard science" as opposed to the relativistic "social science" you are bringing to the table. I don't think you should alter what is obvious just because it might hurt someones feelings or it's an "inconvenient truth". You are right that we have our brains though. And the human brain, pretty much in all modern cultures and few past ones has considered homosexuality at best "different" and in many cases MUCH worse. Nothing has changed about humans. Same gender attraction is what it is. And that "is" makes no sense in any realm of thinking other than disordered. You can manipulate your thinking to accept it any way you like, but I don't think we should fool ourselves into the "they are just like us" BS. They are no more like "us" than the other sexual deviant urges that DON'T have as strong a governmental lobby.

As for your God angle...I'd be more apt to argue against religion than for it.

tristanrobin · 04-27-2008, 09:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by garysher

Let's hope some rebellious teenager happens on this thread and realises their presumed homosexuality is just a fad. like dieing their hair purple, and yes they will grow out of ot as they hopefully mature.

"Wow. After all these years, I've discovered my parents were absolutely right about not drinking and driving and how important it is to be responsible and focused. And double wow! With that discovery, I find I no longer am remotely interested in sucking dick. Voila! After all these years, and the hundreds of times I've had sex, I discover my love for my partner and my passionate intimate life were just fads!!! AMAZING!!! EVEN more astounding, I learned how to spell dyeing!"

pensacola_niceman · 04-27-2008, 09:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tristanrobin

"Wow. After all these years, I've discovered my parents were absolutely right about not drinking and driving and how important it is to be responsible and focused. And double wow! With that discovery, I find I no longer am remotely interested in sucking dick. Voila! After all these years, and the hundreds of times I've had sex, I discover my love for my partner and my passionate intimate life were just fads!!! AMAZING!!! EVEN more astounding, I learned how to spell dyeing!"

Yeah, I bet your parents are really disappointed that you turned out to be a scary hippy.

garysher · 04-27-2008, 04:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deekers79

Quote:

This is true. I revise my original statement as follows: I'd forgotten that all scientific explanations are seen as "excuses" by a lot of traditionalists. Do you want to address my point now?

It would help if you restated your "point" after I exposed the error.

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Quote:

"So let's get this straight - God gives us brains so we can oppose His guidance to us provided in the scriptures???"

Well, I do believe that human reason came before the scriptures. Incidentally, what is a higher authority: God-given reason, or man-written text?

How about the Word of God given to man?

Aren't you the one who commented about "poisoning the well"??

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"I agree. 'Things are the way they are' is a line of defence often used by homosexuals to justify their dysfunctional behaviour patterns."

This is true. So what you must look at is the reason for change. Homosexual behavior, in and of itself, is not dysfunctional.

How on earth do you rationalise that??

The purpose of human sexuality is procreation. Homosexual sex can never result in conception, ergo it is dysfunctional.

(To call it so as you did is to poison the well, another logical error.) It's when you add all the oppression (in the form of invalidation) that has been placed on homosexuals that you start to see dysfunctional behavior in them. What I was talking about (and which you failed to address) is the fact that traditionalists don't have any real reasons for not legalizing same-sex marriage except that marriage in most of the world has always been a man and a woman.

You're talking about an individual saying "this is how I've been ever since I can remember," and therefore his or her argument is based solely on personal experiences. What I'm talking about is people who base their arguments on other people's opinions and behaviors: tradition.

The way babies are created is not just a "tradition", so your entire line of argument about "traditionalism" just collapsed.

And before you go off on another tangent, I'm not saying all tradition is bad, I'm saying it can be misguiding and doesn't take into account the personal experiences of the people it oppresses.

Sounds like you are going off on a tangent.

BTW welcome to the site, check out the "quote" function!

garysher · 04-27-2008, 04:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tristanrobin

"Wow. After all these years, I've discovered my parents were absolutely right about not drinking and driving and how important it is to be responsible and focused. And double wow! With that discovery, I find I no longer am remotely interested in sucking dick. Voila! After all these years, and the hundreds of times I've had sex, I discover my love for my partner and my passionate intimate life were just fads!!! AMAZING!!! EVEN more astounding, I learned how to spell dyeing!"

Other than correcting my typo was there any point to your girlish little outburst?

tristanrobin · 04-27-2008, 06:43 PM

nothing beyond what anybody (except obviously you) could glean from reading it in context with the stupid comment of yours which I quoted.

deekers79 · 04-27-2008, 08:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by garysher

BTW welcome to the site, check out the "quote" function!

When you type text in between the beginning of a quote and the end of a quote, it posts your new text within the quote. Then when someone uses the "quote" function, all of that text that you wrote inside the quote box is gone with the quote box. It's really rather annoying. Try typing your text after the quote box, or creating multiple quote boxes for each quote you want to comment on.

deekers79 · 04-27-2008, 09:10 PM

"How about the Word of God given to man?"

Now we see it. If your sole basis for the argument against same-sex marriage is based on the fact that you think homosexual behavior is a sin, then we're into a whole new ballpark. Is this the case?

And if you are a fundamentalist, who thinks that every word in the Bible as we read it today was God-inspired directly from God himself, then not only is there no arguing with you (because you claim the authority of God for yourself), but you really need to find a forum where the morality of homosexual behavior is debated, not the legality of gay marriage.

Gay marriage is a civil issue, not a religious or even a moral issue. Don't believe me? Consider this: It is perfectly legal for a lesbian to marry a gay man, and then live in separate houses with their own gay partners. This is LEGAL. Is it moral? You tell me. But regardless, it's legal.

The legality of same-sex marriage is not about whether or not you think homosexual behavior is wrong.

deekers79 · 04-27-2008, 09:18 PM

"The purpose of human sexuality is procreation. Homosexual sex can never result in conception, ergo it is dysfunctional."

Here, you're playing semantics. If sexual behavior's function is to produce children, then it necessarily follows that any sexual behavior that cannot produce children is not functional. But the word dysfunction doesn't mean not functional. It means "a medical abnormality in the functioning of an organ or other part or system of the body." Therefore using this word implies that there is something wrong with the person, not the behavior.

So let's replace that word with what you should have said: Homosexual sex can never result in conception, ergo it is not functional.

Loses some of it's bite, doesn't it?

deekers79 · 04-27-2008, 09:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deekers79

If sexual behavior's function is to produce children, then it necessarily follows that any sexual behavior that cannot produce children is not functional.

And if this is the basis for who we allow to marry, then are you saying we should ban every couple who cannot produce children from marrying?