Defending the Truth

Articles | Interviews | Politicians | Groups | Arcade | Experience | Donate
  Defending the Truth > Debate Politics > Global Politics

Global Politics Debate US and International politics here.

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 02-05-2006, 04:18 PM   #11 (permalink)
ZX3
Citizen
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 73
Points: 2,107, Level: 27
Points: 2,107, Level: 27 Points: 2,107, Level: 27 Points: 2,107, Level: 27
Level up: 72%, 43 Points needed
Level up: 72% Level up: 72% Level up: 72%
Activity: 0%
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
ZX3 is offline
Reply With Quote
 
The Hamas victory is not the catastrophe it is made out to. The Hamas support in the vote is based upon rejection of the corruption and incompetence, as well as split voting (Hamas and Fatah were not the only two parties running).
Sponsored Links
Old 02-16-2006, 08:57 PM   #12 (permalink)
Citizen
 
RudeBoy's Avatar
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 24
Points: 1,876, Level: 25
Points: 1,876, Level: 25 Points: 1,876, Level: 25 Points: 1,876, Level: 25
Level up: 76%, 24 Points needed
Level up: 76% Level up: 76% Level up: 76%
Activity: 0%
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
RudeBoy is offline
Reply With Quote
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ManOfTrueTruth
I have always found it hypocritical that Israel and the US insist that Hamas renounce violence, as if the US and Israel was any better than Hamas (really, the US and Israel is worse than Hamas), I think the US and Israel need to renounce violence first, then and only then, does the US and Israel have the right to tell Hamas to renounce violence, until then, why should Hamas or anybody else take Israel and the US seriously? I don't take the US and Israel very seriously and we all know the long history of the US and Israel both of using unprovoked violence and breaking their signed treaties.
I think it is important to distinguish between what is legitimate resistance (which is a fundamental moral and legal right for the Palestinian people) and outright terrorism geared and targetted towards innocent civilians.

Where it should be condemned, it should be condemned on all sides. When a Hamas suicide bomber blows up innocent Israelis eating pizza, that should be thoroughly and unequivocally condemned. Just as when the IDF drops a bomb on an apartment full of innocent Palestinians - that should be condemned.

It should be remember that it is a moral and legal right for the Palestinians to resist occupation. How they choose to resist is of much import. I have read countless stories where they have resisted peacefully or have had civil disobedience only to be brutally crushed. We never see these in the Western Media. When the militants use the most fearful weapon at their disposal - the suicide bomb - only then do we see it pasted all over the airwaves. It's egregious the disproportionate amount of coverage the Israelis and Palestinians get.

It is important to remember that there are Israelis and Palestinians working to create a better life for themselves and their neighbors.

That both sides have their monsters but yet, both sides have many more that are interested in living in peace and prosperity. It's easy to demonize (it's easier to kill those that are demonized). It's harder to understand and to bridge conflicts but it must be done.

List of Peace organizations from both sides (links at source link):

Adalah non-profit, non-sectarian legal center

Adam Institute The Adam Institute for Democracy and Peace in Memory of Emil Greenzweig

Adam, Teva Vadin: Israel Union for Environmental Defense

Addamir Addamir Prisoner Support Center

A Different Future

Adva The Adva Center

AIC Alternative Information Center

Al-Liqa Center for Religious and Heritage Studies in the Holy Land

Amnesty International Israel Section

Association for Civil Rights in Israel

Bat Shalom Israeli-Palestinian Womens' Group

Bereaved Families Circle Israeli and Palestinian families who lost loved ones in war and terror

Brit Tzedek v'Shalom, the Jewish Alliance for Justice

B'Tselem Israeli human rights group focused on civil rights for Palestinians

Bustan L'Shalom

Christian Peacemaker Team In Hebron

Coalition of Women for a Just Peace

Compassionate Listening Project

DCI Defense for Children International

Democracy and Workers Rights Center

Dukium -- Negev Coexistence Forum

Friends of the Earth Middle East

Friendship Village

Gaza Community Mental Health Program

Givat Haviva Jewish-Arab education center

Gush Shalom The Israeli Peace Bloc

HaMoked Center for the Defense of the Individual

International Forum for Justice and Peace in Palestine

Israel Religious Action Center For Human Equality, Social Justice, Religious Tolerance

Israel Womens Network

Israeli Committee Against House Demolitions

Israeli Council for Israeli-Palestinian Peace

Israel-Palestine Center for Research and Information (IPCRI)

Ittijah Union of Arab Community Based Associations

Jewish Peace Fellowship

Jewish Voice for Peace

Kav La'Oved - Worker's Hotline for the Protection of Worker's Rights

Kav Yarok THE GREEN LINE - STUDENTS DRAW THE LINE

Kol HaIsha - Women's Center

LAW -- The Palestinian Society for the Protection of Human Rights and the Environment

MadreInternational Women's Human Rights Organization

Mandela Institute for Prisoners

Megido Peace Project

Meretz USA

Middle East Region Professional Training Program

Middle Way

The Mossawa Center

Movement of Democratic Women in Israel

Negev Institute for Strategies of Peace and Development

Neve Shalom - Wahat al Salam

New Family

Nisan Young Women Leaders

Not in My Name

Open House

Palestine Human Rights Information Center

Palestinian Center for Human Rights

Palestinian Human Rights Monitoring Group (Bassam Eid)

Palestinian Independent Commission for Citizens' Rights

Palestine-Israel Journal

Peacequest -- European Palestine Israel Centre

PeaceWatch

Physicians for Human Rights-Israel

Progressive Jewish Alliance

Public Committee Against Torture in Israel

Rabbis for Human Rights

Seeds of Peace

Seeking Peace, Pursuing Justice (Reform Judaism for Social Justice and Peace)

Sikkuy The Association for the Advancement of Equal Opportunity

Social Development Committee of Haifa

Society for the Protection of Personal Rights for Lesbians, Gay Men and Bisexuals in Israel

Society of St. Yves Legal suport organization

Ta'ayush Arab Jewish partnership

Teena - The Cultural and Educational Society

The Interfaith Encounter Association

The Abraham Fund

The Arab Association for Human Rights (HRA)

The Center for Jewish-Arab Economic Development

The People's Voice (Nusseibeh-Ayalon)

Windows -Channels For Communication

Women in Black

Women's Organization for Political Prisoners

Source Link (Links to above organizations)
\"If the left is understood to include \'Bolshevism,\' then I would flatly dissociate myself from the left. Lenin was one of the greatest enemies of socialism, in my opinion, for reasons I\'ve discussed.\" - Noam Chomsky

http://defendingthetruth.com/images/rudeboy.jpg
Old 02-16-2006, 09:06 PM   #13 (permalink)
Citizen
 
RudeBoy's Avatar
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 24
Points: 1,876, Level: 25
Points: 1,876, Level: 25 Points: 1,876, Level: 25 Points: 1,876, Level: 25
Level up: 76%, 24 Points needed
Level up: 76% Level up: 76% Level up: 76%
Activity: 0%
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
RudeBoy is offline
Reply With Quote
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by indago
US supports Fatah. Palestinians look to US and see government on the take. They don't want government on the take, so they vote for Hamas.
Not only that, but many of the reformists were brutally suppressed by Fatah during the Oslo years - in essence they acted like surrogate enforcers for the Israelis as Oslo pretty much legitmized the occupation.

People like Marwan Barghouti (now in an Israeli jail) and Edward Said (who died here in the US due to a lost battle with cancer).
\"If the left is understood to include \'Bolshevism,\' then I would flatly dissociate myself from the left. Lenin was one of the greatest enemies of socialism, in my opinion, for reasons I\'ve discussed.\" - Noam Chomsky

http://defendingthetruth.com/images/rudeboy.jpg
Old 02-16-2006, 09:15 PM   #14 (permalink)
Citizen
 
RudeBoy's Avatar
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 24
Points: 1,876, Level: 25
Points: 1,876, Level: 25 Points: 1,876, Level: 25 Points: 1,876, Level: 25
Level up: 76%, 24 Points needed
Level up: 76% Level up: 76% Level up: 76%
Activity: 0%
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
RudeBoy is offline
Reply With Quote
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven M
Quote:
Originally Posted by ManOfTrueTruth
I have always found it hypocritical that Israel and the US insist that Hamas renounce violence, as if the US and Israel was any better than Hamas (really, the US and Israel is worse than Hamas), I think the US and Israel need to renounce violence first, then and only then, does the US and Israel have the right to tell Hamas to renounce violence, until then, why should Hamas or anybody else take Israel and the US seriously? I don't take the US and Israel very seriously and we all know the long history of the US and Israel both of using unprovoked violence and breaking their signed treaties.
It is true that the US and Israel are hypocritical, but the point is that Hamas has sworn to destroy Israel (it's in their founding charter) and does not even recognize Israel's right to exist. Therefore it would be impossible to have a "two-state solution", which is the objective the international community is currently pursuing.

If Israel were to act toward all Palestinians in the way that Hamas acts toward all Israelis, we wouldn't have any more Palestinians. I think Israel deserves more credit than it gets for it's self-restraint in not annihilating the people who have sworn to kill them. Hamas (and organizations like it) need to realize that the state of Israel will never be defeated by bomb-toting militants. If anything, this only hurts Hamas more by rallying the Israeli hawks.
You may want to note that by establishing dialogue with Hamas de facto recognition exists on both sides. Uri Avnery describes this in detail.

Your other point. Israel exists and will continue to exist no matter the rhetoric displayed by Hamas hawks. The only difference is, the Palestinians continue to see their land taken every day - in essence the are being destroyed - while Israel never will be.

You may wish to remember the truce that Hamas has still held even while their leader, Sheik Ahmed Yasin was extra-judiciously assassinated. He was a political leader (a blind man in a wheelchair). Was he a nice fellow? I bet not, but what purpose does it serve to kill a blind man in a wheelchair who happens to be the political leader of Hamas - not even the military leader (Hamas has two arms and they don't always work in tandem). It was a military and political mistake. Nonetheless, Hamas has held to a truce - and they have even declared that they would except two states only under condition - something Fatah never did - that the Israelis return to 1967 borders and remove all infrastructure of occupation. Now they didn't state outright peace, but they did declare a "hudna" (truce) for ten years. Once that ten year time frame would end, negotiations would be held for another truce.

Meantime negotiations could have been implemented the whole time for a two state solution based on UNSCR 242. However, Iseael chose to assassinate a blind cripple. Sometimes peace is just out of reach.

Hamas is still amenable to a truce predicated on Israel's return to 1967 lines (which I would assume means the removal of the apartheid wall).
\"If the left is understood to include \'Bolshevism,\' then I would flatly dissociate myself from the left. Lenin was one of the greatest enemies of socialism, in my opinion, for reasons I\'ve discussed.\" - Noam Chomsky

http://defendingthetruth.com/images/rudeboy.jpg
Old 02-16-2006, 09:18 PM   #15 (permalink)
Citizen
 
RudeBoy's Avatar
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 24
Points: 1,876, Level: 25
Points: 1,876, Level: 25 Points: 1,876, Level: 25 Points: 1,876, Level: 25
Level up: 76%, 24 Points needed
Level up: 76% Level up: 76% Level up: 76%
Activity: 0%
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
RudeBoy is offline
Reply With Quote
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZX3
Quote:
Who knows where the Israel/Palestine conflict would be without U.S. $$$$$

It might have been over already.
Or the refusal of the international community to let somebody win. An Israeli victory will do more for peace than the current "peace process"
What would entail an Israeli victory? Palestinians living in ghettos? If I infer incorrectly, I apologize. Could you elaborate further?
\"If the left is understood to include \'Bolshevism,\' then I would flatly dissociate myself from the left. Lenin was one of the greatest enemies of socialism, in my opinion, for reasons I\'ve discussed.\" - Noam Chomsky

http://defendingthetruth.com/images/rudeboy.jpg
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:54 PM.


 Top Political Sites
Poltical Topsites