Defending the Truth

What are your views on the subject on patriotism? For me, the idea is just as ridiculous as being proud of being a man. I have no say in what sex I was going to be, so why should I be proud of it? In the same fashion, I view patriotism as silly because we have no choice where we are born, so why be proud of it? It is not like you built a house and are proud of your work.

The reason I am against Patriotism is because I no longer see the necessity of nations. They serve no purpose other than separated people, causing wars, and dividing the classes.

Nations have already served their purpose. The necessity of Nations was to organize people so that we could advance and survive. Now, we have the means to survive without the oppressive state.

What are your thoughts?

I believe that nationalism is important. Whether we like it or not, cultural divisions exist, and cultural groups need a place where they know they will be safe, and where they can find their centers. If you abolished every country on Earth, there would still be Jews, or Italians, or French people, or Americans. Nations do not cause class.

First of all, let's not confuse nationalism with patriotism. Nationalism is a much more fierce idea than patriotism. Nationalists believe the idea of, "My Country, Right or Wrong." This is a very dangerous idea because it means you follow whatever your leaders do without any regard to whether it is right or wrong. Nationalists believe their nation is superior to other nations as well, which creates many problems in itself...

Nations do not cause class, I agree, but they help to sustain it. By having a national hierarchy it creates a necessary class structure that cannot be changed without the abolition of the state itself.

Culture is fine, I think we can still maintain culture but be able to move freely throughout the world and not have the silly wars or oppressive immigration policies we have now.

Nationalism is simply the belief in autonomy for an ethnic group. For example, I would consider myself a Zionist, or Israeli nationalist, even though I do not agree with a great variety of things that the Israelis and Israeli government are doing. Nationalists also do not believe that their nation is superior. I think you are confusing nationalism with jingoism. Nationalism simply denotes pride in one's country.

Class structure changes all the time. India doesn't have the same class structure it had two hundred years ago, but it's still a country. We have class systems, not caste systems. People's positions in society are not set in stone.

Wars and oppressive immigration policies are not necissarily connected to natioanlism either.

I am a pacifist, and I am a nationalist, for example.

Nations provide a place to be safe. For example, in the unlikely event America went Nazi tommorow, I would have somewhere to escape to. Jews didn't have that option in the old days.

First of all, I disagree that nations provide security. Look at all of the people in the United States who are subject to discrimination and bigotry even though they are legal citizens of the country. If you are a Zionist that's fine, but at the same time the land taken from the Palestinians to create that country has caused much fighting between the two groups, implying that Nations are not safe places.

Definitions taken from dictionary.com:

Patriotism: Love of and devotion to one's country.
Nationalism:The belief that nations will benefit from acting independently rather than collectively, emphasizing national rather than international goals.
Jingoism: Extreme nationalism characterized especially by a belligerent foreign policy; chauvinistic patriotism.

With these definitions, we can see that the order of extremity goes: Patriotism to Nationalism to Jingoism. I view Patriotism as silly and the other two as just dangerous.

It is true that class structures are not always exactly the same, but as long as there is national government there will always be class structure. As far as the United States goes, it is true the classes are not set in stone but the ability to move up the social ladder is extremely difficult, and when one does move up, they can become the oppressors themselves.

As far as wars go, the two largest wars in the world, the two World Wars, were caused by Nationalism, both in part by Germany. Nationalism is a very dangerous thing that makes people do crazy things, almost to same degree as religion.

AnarchyintheUS, I think, to an extent, you are also confusing patriotism with nationalism a little bit. I personally believe that patriotism is a very important thing, but at the same time I concede that it is also dangerous when in the hands of a content, uneducated, uninformed, and passive peoples.

Patriotism is not necessarily when someone is just proud of their own nationality; that is, its not just all praising of symbols or flags, and people aren't patriots just because they were born one nationality or another. I think, that it is much deeper in that patriots are proud of what their country stands for. In that sense, patriotism is alright, and in fact encouraged.

But I think you are confusing it with nationalism, or perhaps chauvinism; where people are praising the symbols and the flag, and would follow their government and country where ever it leads them, even if it leads them down a path that might be contrary to that country's original morals and foundations. In that sense it is dangerous.

Without patriotism, we wouldn't have our founding fathers, and despite many of them being hypocritical slave-owners, we wouldn't have our freedoms and rights written in our Constitution. Without patriots, there wouldn't have been those that stood up against tyrany and British monarchy. Without patriotism, we perhaps wouldn't be the United States of America, but perhaps something on the lines of the British Commonwealth of America.

Without patriotism, we wouldn't have people that would stand up against a foreign or domestic enemy. In fact, ultranationalists and chauvinists are enemies of patriots. Without patriotism in the world, you wouldn't have had a resistance to Hitler. Without patriots, any tyrant could assume absolutism in the United States. Without patriots, you wouldn't have the people standing up and questioning an illegal government. The people you see blindly waving the flag and singing the national anthem and giving infinite support to their government when their government not only is illegal, but an enemy to the very foundations and morals of this country; are people that are nationalists and chauvinists. Blind servitude.

The dissenters are the American patriots.

Perhaps sometimes, standing up to your government can mean standing up for your country. Many people can and should be proud of their country and what it stands for. Without those people, we wouldn't function as a society. I am proud to call myself an American patriot; and I'm afraid this country has turned into mostly fat, stupid, happy, and passive people that wouldn't lift a finger for their country if it were being hijacked. There are not enough patriots.

"That we are to stand by the President right or wrong is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public."
-Theodore Roosevelt

So that's what I think about patriotism, to answer your question.

Somehow, I am more afraid of systematic disenfranchisement and anti-semitism than a few car bombs. Bigotry doesn't scare me, the government taking advantage of me does. Throughout history, the Jewish people have been persecuted by governments who have claimed that we are an alien element. In Israel, we make up over 75% of the population. We aren't the alien element.

Bully for you. By the way, you just changed your definitions. It's nice that you went and checked a dictionary though.



What does that have to do with government? It's not the government's job to make sure that social mobility is easier. That's an economic issue, not a government issue.

World War I was caused by militarism, a tangled web of alliances, a lack of conversation and understanding between nations, and a misguided sense of romantic heroism. Nationalism may have been as aspect, but it certainly wasn't THE cause.

World War II was caused because of the GAPING flaws in the Treaty of Versailles.

Oh, and Bakunin was a violent anti-semite.

Here's a choice quote:

"Now this entire Jewish world, which constitutes an exploiting sect, a people of leeches, a voracious parasite, closely and intimately connected with another, regardless not only of frontiers but of political differences as well -- this Jewish world is today largely at the disposal of Marx or Rothschild. I am sure that, on the one hand, the Rothschilds appreciate the merits of Marx, and that on the other hand, Marx feels an instinctive inclination and a great respect for the Rothschilds. This may seem strange. What could there be in common between communism and high finance? Ho ho! The communism of Marx seeks a strong state centralization, and where this exists, there the parasitic Jewish nation -- which speculates upon the labor of people -- will always find the means for its existence...

...In reality, this would be for the proletariat a barrack-regime, under which the workingmen and the workingwomen, converted into a uniform mass, would rise, fall asleep, work, and live at the beat of the drum. The privilege of ruling would be in the hands of the skilled and the learned, with a wide scope left for profitable crooked deals carried on by the Jews, who would be attracted by the enormous extension of the international speculations of the national banks..." -- Michael Bakunin: Polemique contre les Juifs, 1872.

Oh, and he was an aristocrat.

Anarchy, have you read much Tolstoy?

I haven't read any novels...but I have read a few articles/essays by him. Why do you ask?

He felt the same way you do about patriotism is all.