To put this in a nutshell...

a) Christian dogma teaches that Jesus had to perfectly keep the law in order to change the covenant between God and man from the Old Testament's covenant, to the New Testament's covenant of *Believe in me, repent, and you're saved*.

b) The Hebrew law contains a law against gathering food on the Sabbath. Dylan covered it quite thoroughly. There should be no dispute as to what the law actually says.

c) Jesus broke that Hebrew law, thus he did not keep the law perfectly like Christian dogma claims he did.


Almost EVERYTHING else that alias is throwing out there is a smoke-screen and irrelevant to these points. It doesn't matter what I do or do not know about the Sabbath. The indisputable fact is that Jesus gathered food on the Sabbath, and thus broke the law.
His comments on "mercy" are thoroughly irrelevant, except they could be applied to further MY arguments. You don't need "mercy" if you didn't do anything wrong in the first place. If you need "mercy", then it's obvious that you DID break the law...
There are multiple other smoke-screens which alias has thrown out there, but you get the point.
lol.... If you actually wanted to get the point in the first place, which I'm guessing you didn't...

You won't answer the question will you. This is the third time.....Are they guilty or innocent?

I just get a kick out of every time you ask me a question that you claim I haven't answered, but I ACTUALLY HAVE answered it. Repeatedly.

They are guilty of breaking the Hebrew law regarding gathering food on the Sabbath. Plain and simple.

And I remember ONE of the times that I answered this I EXPLICITLY addressed Jesus's claim of "guiltless" by pointing out it's like the kid with his hand in the cookie jar claiming he didn't do it. Jesus SAYS "guiltless", when the truth is obvious. They ARE GUILTY of violating that law.

Whereupon you start making up all sorts of new standards. You start claiming that "hunger" is an out to this law, which is found NOWHERE in the Bible. Not even in Jesus's comments, unless you start making things up. You start claiming that Jesus is "above the law", to which I pointed out that Jesus may be "above the law", but he STILL BROKE the law which violates Christian dogma.

Am I arguing with somebody who has Alzheimer's? Is that why I'm the only one of us who remembers that these questions you keep claiming haven't been answered have in fact been answered, sometimes REPEATEDLY before???

You and the pharisees say they are guilty. Jesus says you don't understand. I agree with Jesus. You agree with the Pharisees. You're problem is you disagree with Jesus. That is why you have animosity to Chrisitianity. End of story.

Oh yes. I didn't include my all time favorite response to me answering that question... You start in with grouping me with the pharisees and calling me a pharisee...

That's the "end of story" for you, in that it's all you need to ignore the contradiction.

Jesus claims they are guiltless.
WHY are they "guiltless" though?

1) Are the pharisees flawed in thinking that the law states no gathering food on the Sabbath? No.
2) Did Jesus and his disciples gather food on the Sabbath when the law tells them not to? Yes.
3) Does Christian dogma state that Jesus had to keep the Mosaic law perfectly in order to fulfill the Old Testament prophecies and demands? Yes.

I don't think there is any real dispute between us on questions 1-3.
It's the next one that we seem to disagree on...

4) Did Jesus keep the Mosaic law perfectly?
I say no. It's a logical conclusion based on questions 1-3.
I believe you would say yes.
And the reason why you say yes is that you ignore issues 1-3 above, and you blindly believe that the kid with his hand in the cookie jar is innocent, just because he tells you to believe that...

And using that methodology, ANY contradiction can be resolved...
Or rather ignored...

The bible says the sun rises in the West? Our maps must be wrong.
The bible says the earth is only a few thousand years old, despite the scientific evidence to the contrary? Science must be wrong.
The bible claims there was a great flood which killed off everything, despite the scientific evidence to the contrary? Science must be wrong.

Your contradictions are solved by blind faith that the contradiction isn't there, despite the logic which clearly shows that it is there...

You said they are guilty and the Pharisees said they were guilty. Correct me if I'm wrong, but that means you agree with the Pharisees. Jesus said if the pharisees understood what Jesus said then they would not condemn them. You are as confused as the Pharisees. Seems pretty simple to me.

Where does the bible say the earth is only a few thousands of years old?

If the pharisees told you NOT to jump off a bridge, would you jump off a bridge?
< end sarcasm >

The pharisees weren't always wrong.


Then explain to me.
WHAT am I confused about?
Don't ask me leading questions which I have already answered where you don't agree with the answers.
Give me SOME REASON to "understand" which doesn't just rely on "Jesus says they're guiltless, so therefore they are..."


People INTERPRETING the bible have made that claim...

"In the 1650's a well known bishop named James Ussher studied the genealogies in the old testament. By doing so he calculated that the earth was created in 4004 B.C. ("Get a grip on evolution" by David Burnie) "
http://www.angelfire.com/mi/dinosaurs/earthage.html

No, there was and is really only one every week. It's been that way since the Jewish calendar developed, which was definitely BC.

If you have scriptural proof otherwise, I'm all ears.

The pharisees were wrong if Jesus said they were wrong. Jesus is the Word of God. To actually state that the Pharisees were correct and Jesus was wrong shows just exactly who is confused here. YOU. To even state such a thing tells all of us you don't know what the Sam Hill you're talking about. Jesus is the Word of God in the flesh. You're a pharisee.

Saturday is never mentioned in the bible. The Sabbath DAY changed every 7 years, but there many other kinds of Sabbaths:

Sabbaths of different days:

1. On the first day, Leviticus 23:39
2. ON the 7th day, Exodus 20:8
3. On the 8th day, Leviticus 23:39


Sabbaths of different lengths

1. 1 day long, Exodus 16:23-29
2. 2 days long, Leviticus 23:6-9 and 15-22
3. 1 year long,Leviticus 25:4
4. 70 Years long, 2 Chronicles 36:21
5. Eternity long, Heb 4:9