Maybe it doesn't help the debate, but you guys are spitting out the same propaganda that Bush's adminstration pushes. Just admit to the fact that you as a conservative American are fine and dandy with exchanging your rights for protection and this debate can be over. Because honestly, the only rebuttle you guys have said about the Patriot Act violating our rights is that there have been no terrorist attacks since 9/11. You can refer to my post above where I explain this, but as I said before, American lives are not above the American way.

Yea you're right..Everyday many of my friends are getting arrested for no reason..especially my friends of color. It's all because of the Patriot Act. You guys are just 100% correct.

You guys can keep on bringing up the Patriot Act, that's fine with me; and the supporters will just reply back the same info. We can play this game as long as you want. Why don't you admit that the Bush Administration is making somewhat good decisions considering their have been no terrorist attacks since 9/11.

My life has not changed before the Patriot Act was introduced, and after. Maybe it's because I'm not hiding something and I feel safer everyday. This is the main reason why I support the Patriot Act. Maybe for once the left can come up with some kind of plan that would not "violate our rights" and help the government track down terrorists in the US. I have not seen any plans proposed from the left, whatsoever. Once again, it's just attack attack attack.

The first sentence of my first post in this topic was:
The parts that are good and unintrusive on civil liberties need to be put into law as needed.

So now that we've addressed the "you never come up with a plan" issue, let's move on...

About your comment about friends of color being arressted everyday for no reason, I'm not really sure why you brought that up. I did not accuse the Patriot Act of being racist. Racial profiling is going to happen with Patriot Act or without it, it shouldn't be that way, but it is.

To be perfectly honest, I don't feel any safer with the Patriot Act. The reason for that is because I feel just as safe now as I did before 9/11. What upsets me is that there are so many people in this country that support an act that clearly violates American principles and Constitutional rights. This act allows the government to do things that the Constitution says the CAN NOT DO. Let's just say, hypothetically, that Congress passed a bill that all African Americans have to be arressted and detained immediately. Saying "I don't care about the Patriot Act because I have nothing to hide" is like saying "I don't care about Congress detaining all African Americans, because I'm white so I have nothing to worry about." Don't be so selfish, it's not because it doesn't effect you, it's because it effects America and more importantly the American way. The founders of this country created a document that set up a government and then protected the people from that government. This act is a violation of that principle.

Now why can't you reply like that more often (from your last paragraph). My comment about the color being arrested everyday was in reply to tadpoles post, not yours. I get home late from work so my reply is just a bulk of things that replies to all the previous posts.

Well, I already posted this:

"I've read these posts a couple times now and I have to say this. I can not defend an act that violates our rights in the Constitution. I don't care what it is for. Yes, The Patriot Act helps, at least somewhat, in protecting the American people. It also allows the government to do things they couldn't do before. That's not because they never got around to it or did not want to until after 9/11. It's because they could not!!! The Republican power seized the opportunity to make this act because the country was in a very sensitive time. The Patriot Act also allows the government to label whoever they want as terrorists and immediately detain them. They do not receive the same legal rights as every other American. Why? Defenders of this act, you answer this question. To be perfectly honest, the American way is higher than any one American person and THAT'S what I'm defending. I will never sacrifice the American way for an American life. People like tadpole, who join the service and fight, they sacrifice THEIR LIVES for the American way. They don't sacrifice the American way for their lives."

...which along with that last paragraph from the above post culminates my thoughts on the subject.

I actually missed that post. I was replying to tadpoles post which I then returned to see the replies. I will admit to that and i'm sorry. Hope that makes you feel better.

It's fine. I was just putting it up again so you could read it.

Ok... I know you are a pretty sensible guy, but all I am getting out of this from you is 'I would much rather have another terrorist attack on the United States than give up a few rights' it's just ridiculous. It amazes me how your personal values mean more than your fellow countrymen. Screw the Patriot act come and bomb my family, I don’t care, as long as my rights are not violated. It's just so damn selfish and barbaric to me, but what do I know I'm just brain-washed by Bush and his cabinet. Get Real!

No offense, Tadpole, but I would really like to know how I am less safe due to the Patriot Act.

I can see how that's what you got from my post but that's not what I am saying at all. To say that "I think I would much rather have terrorists attack the U.S. instead of giving up a few rights" is completely misconstruing my words and my intent. That's not what I mean at all. What I mean is that an American life is not more important than the American way. The supporters of this act have said that they would rather give up rights if American lives are saved in the process. What I'm saying is that is not the principle that this country was founded on. People who fought and died in the Revolutionary War, fought and died for their rights. They did not believe that their lives were more important than the cause they were fighting for. To me, this act embodies a total aberration from that principle. The fact that people are willing to garner their protection in exchange for rights is against the American way.

{standing ovation}
Bravo Sir! Well Said! I could not agree more.

It almost seems as though the conservatives in this debate seem to think that our rights were granted to us by accident, as though the fore-fathers had forgotten to infringe on the rights we have, and the illustrious 'W', just brought us back up to speed.

My question is this, what is it about safety that is so sweet and addictive to you people that you are willing to sacrifice your freedom for it? How can you take such a cowardly stance. It is very likely that every member of this debate has had a member of their family who once went off to war, and died, to support the ideals on which this nation was founded. The ideals of freedom, and justice for all. But now you do them a disservice by cowardly hiding behind a peice of unjust legislation in exchange for safety. What is worse, is the fact that the Patriot Act provides no additional safety. Hundreds of thousands of brave men who have died for the ideal of freedom and justice for all cast shame upon you who would sacrifice the freedom they fought so hard to defend, for a pittance of safety. Shame on you, who could supoport such things!

I am deeply saddened as I read this forum. All the conservatives are doing is making me question why I have wasted this much of my life fighting for freedoms, that they apparently just don't care about.