Defending the Truth

Well i'm glad you have such a great relationship with all those amazingly wealthy and happy-happy-joy-joy Palestinians living in Israel.

BUt we were actually talking about the Palestinians in Palestine remember? Their life, on the other hand, SUCKS..

I'm quite sure you are right. As do the Palestinians.. NO human really wants to go to war.

However somewhere in between something goes wrong. WHat is that? It is not possible for blame to rest squarely upon ONE party. It is a complex relationship with a LOT of violent history.

It is only RATIONAL that errors ON BOTH SIDES have caused resentment. Don't you think they would have figured it out by now if it were so simple?

Explaining behaviour by calling it "evil" is a HUGE cop-out. It frees you from thinking of the REAL causes.

As if somebody being "evil" is the cause of anything. The real CAUSE is the set of circumstances that corrupted a human.

YOu see people like YOU on the other hand are not capable of grasping the concept of objectivity. Nor are you able to believe in the good in humans.

God made man in his image. That means god made man instinctively good. It is the basic nature of man to wish for peace and happiness. However some get led astray. How does that happen?

Because of the "devil"? Because of some supernatural power that takes away your control and MAKES you do evil things? What a cop-out yet again.

The Devil are all those rationalizations (truth) that people create in their mind for acting wrongly.

The thought in a young man's mind that blowing himself up in a bus will take him to heaven is the DEvil. The Devil is Rumsfeld's thought that Iraq was dangerous enough to kill 650,000 people in a war. The Devil is the thought in MEN that they are superior to WOMEN. The devil is the justification a rich man gives himself for underpaying his employees.

All these justifications prevent man from seeing the truth. And the truth is God.

Wow. I just sounded a bit likea preacher i think.

But the point is that it is really unwise to assume that blame lies solely on one side. It is also unwise to think that EITHER side is "evil". It is precisely that type of thinking that prevents any solution to the ME conflict.

"When men or nations retreat into their ego... watch out"

You have no thought of any kind to returning the area of Saudi Arabia to those who were living there before Muhammad's reign of terror.

So why are you Muslims so doggedly determined to believe that Israel has to return the land to people who only recently inhabited it? Israel, as a nation, existed and inhabited the land LONG BEFORE there were people who even called themselves Palestinians. And the history of the these supposed Palestinians is, itself, littered with blood-shed and insanity.

So here's the deal - something you and all Muslims need to understand: If you want peace, get over your obsession with annihilating Israel. LEAVE THEM ALONE AND THEY WILL LEAVE YOU ALONE! This has been proven repeatedly. The nation of Israel has the right to exist, and they have the right to NOT have Muslims going out of their way to try to kill innocent Israeli citizens.

Until the Muslims stop terrorizing Israel, THERE WILL BE NO PEACE IN THE MIDDLE EAST.


Certainly a peaceful Muslim such as yourself can see that!

LEAVE ISRAEL ALONE! LET THEM GO ABOUT THEIR BUSINESS AND LIVES!

Christ jeff... The people living there before mohammad are STILL THE SAME PEOPLE. Who the hell was it that converted? The arabs of the arabian peninsula.. Who USED to live there? The arabs of the peninsula. Who still lives there?? The arabs of the peninsula. There is nothing to give back as they are STILL IN POSSESSION OF THEIR OWN LAND. Apart from the fact that they are subjugated by some of THEIR OWN PEOPLE.. wholly supported by the US i might add.

YOur comparison is just plain wrong.

Well yes i CAN actually see that terrorism is not a sustainable policy. However it is the palestinians who have been backed into a corner.. Not the Israelis. The simple fact is that Israel has conventional weapons ( TONS of them) whereas the palestinians don't. Suicide bombings are a battle tactic.. One employed because of the extreme hopelessness of their situation.

What i was trying to say is that BOTH NATIONS are stuck in their own ego. Neither can compromise where it is important. At least not as long as both sides believe they are so righteous that they could not possibly admit any wrongdoing anywhere.

See that is an objective and practical view. YOUR view on the other hand is blatantly partisan , and essentially based in your prejudice against muslims, rather than any feelings of love for the jewish people.

As long as you seek to place blame squarely on one party, you are completely excluding the possibility for a solution. The world is not black and white. If it was, then the US would have emerged victorious in all their armed conflict. Funnily though they have NOT. THey have destroyed PLENTY.. but they have gained nothing.

War is not a solution.. it is a PROBLEM.

Muhammad gave them one choice: CONVERT OR DIE!

Give the land back to the Nabateans and Bedouins! They had no choice but to convert, did they?

Muhammad gave them the choice Muslims STILL give non-Muslims: CONVERT OR DIE!

That's complete CRAP!

How many times has Israel pulled out of "occupied territories?" And how has it worked? What have the Palestinians done?

They have LIED. They have CONTINUED THE SUICIDE BOMBINGS.

Israel HAS compromised, and everybody in the world but Muslims and Muslim-supporters KNOWS IT.

The bottom line is this: There will NEVER be peace until the Muslims admit that Israel has the sovereign right to exist. Agreed?

The more sympathy and money given to the palestinians, the longer they act up. Stop supporting them, stop sympathizing with them, and they will be forced by reality to find a better way.

Whatever you say dear friend. Such was not the case at all though..

But i can understand why you must stick to tat particular view of history. Believing that Mohammad was NOT a violent megalomaniac would completely invalidate all your other fabulously well researched and well analysed opinions about the unified cohorts of muslims merely waiting to conquers the saintly US

"La Iqrah FI Deen " .. That is a quote from the Quran that states " there is no compulsion in religion. Had Mohammad not given the free choice to the people of arabia, then he would not have had to institute the Jizya tax for non-muslims.

THe establishment of a parallel taxation system for non-muslims is an administrative acceptance of the existence of non-muslims in a muslim society. Had he killed all that did not convert, this system would have had no relevance.

BUt hey these are just facts.. Usually insufficient to counter prejudice.

Absolutely not..

Peace can only come when BOTH sides stop claiming righteous infallibility. This includes an acceptance that Palestinian anger at the establishment of an Israeli state in their midst (against their will) is a VALID REASON FOR ANGER.

YOU wouldn't be thrilled if Canada decided to send all their french speaking citizens to make their own little homeland in California now would you?

Israel has not compromised on anything. If it had, then it would not have MORE LAND NOW than it did at its founding. Israel has only pulled out on TWO occasions while maintaining a policy of settlement expansion THROUGHOUT that time.

Now let me explain another tiny thing to your stellar intellect. I have already stated on a numerous occasions that terorism is a social phenomena borne of desperation and perceived injustices. What do the IRA, ETA, Tamil tigers, Alqaeda have in common? Not ISLAM.. but rather lousy sociopolitical conditions.

If you are so limited that you can only explain these awful actions by the "evilness" of the palestinians, then you are not actaully analyzing or thinking of anything, but rather just confirming your prejudices.

Here's how it goes. Immigration is good. It increases diversity and stimulates countries economically so long as they can support the population growth. However, there is something of a limit. While immigrants have every right to adjust to their adopted country, contribute to its culture, and even take part in how it is run, they do NOT have the right, as an ethnic group, to simply seize the region, claiming dominion because they were there before. That's not assimilation. It's not even squatting. It's a takeover. The Israelis have a right to live wherever they want, but they do NOT have a right to evict the previous occupants and leave them in run down refugee camps because their group is so sizable.

Unfortunately, with the violence committed by both sides, Hamas' rise to power in Palestine, and especially the U.S. support of Israel, things are NOT likely to improve for a while.

But, but, but, but, this is exactly what muslims are trying to do all over the world! You mean, they CAN'T??????
I'm a long term zionist...and I'll continue to support Israel. The way to peace for the pallies is to stop shooting. It's as simple as that. I don't give two hoots or a holler if they are wasting their energies seething with hatred, jealousy, and self-loathing....I do care that they are killers. They have no respect for human life at all.