Should Barry Bonds records count? - Page 2

Hio · 06-06-2007, 10:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nuttyjoe

Yes, but you still have to give the man his due. When Aaron broke Ruth's record, at the time this record was considered one that would never be touched-ever. Now; that record is going to be broken.
I'm not going to comment on what people view Barry Bonds as; or whether they like him or not- and for whatever reason. I will just say that over the last 8 to 10 years, Bonds has been probably the most feared hitter in all baseball. Why else has he been intentionally walked so much?

Many pitchers intent walk him because they dont want to contribute to his BS record chase. Other times its because(if you watched baseball) was that first base was open with 1 out and the BIG man cant run for squat so its an easy double play chance. And I can find more FEARED hitters in the Majors then Barry.....Ortiz, Manny, A-Rod(yea yea yea but give the guy SOME credit heh) I could keep naming more.

nuttyjoe · 06-06-2007, 12:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hio

Many pitchers intent walk him because they dont want to contribute to his BS record chase. Other times its because(if you watched baseball) was that first base was open with 1 out and the BIG man cant run for squat so its an easy double play chance. And I can find more FEARED hitters in the Majors then Barry.....Ortiz, Manny, A-Rod(yea yea yea but give the guy SOME credit heh) I could keep naming more.

For the record, I do watch baseball. I admit that I like football more, but I still follow baseball. The players you named are all great hitters and definitely great players. The reason for my statement about Bonds was because I recently watched a game where Bonds was Intentionally walked to load the bases which now brought the go-ahead run to the plate in the late innings In my layman's understanding of the game, you don't ever intententionally bring the go-ahead run to the plate. That's just asinine.
For that matter, the pitchers opposing Bonds will do what the manager tells them to. If they are told to walk him, they will do so. The same applies to pitching to him.
It is obvious that you havea personal view on this HR record chase.
That's fine; because I do too. I'm just of the mind that until Bonds is actually found guilty of anything, these charges are merely accusations (or name slandering) and nothing more.
We cannot judge players merely on character. If we could, Ty Cobb wouldn't have been allowed to clean toilets at Cooperstown; let alone be inducted into it. The sad part is that there are many more cases.
An earlier post spoke of evidence that "strongly suggests" the steroid use. What do you think about that? If this "evidence" is so strong, should we try Bonds now or not? Could it be that the PR of another major record being broken be that valuable to MLB that everything else must be seconded to this marketing bonanza? I'm sure we are all aware of the PR that benefitted baseball during the McGwire/Sosa race to Roger Maris's record and the subsequent breaking of it and the subsequent breaking of that new record!
These were the thoughts a friend gave me. He is a fanatic of baseball but he sees the purity of the game (as he referred to it) being prostituted. He began by blaming Donald Fehr and the player's union- but that's another subject entirely.

Hio · 06-06-2007, 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nuttyjoe

For the record, I do watch baseball. I admit that I like football more, but I still follow baseball. The players you named are all great hitters and definitely great players. The reason for my statement about Bonds was because I recently watched a game where Bonds was Intentionally walked to load the bases which now brought the go-ahead run to the plate in the late innings In my layman's understanding of the game, you don't ever intententionally bring the go-ahead run to the plate. That's just asinine.
How many outs were there and was first base open? If first base was open and there was only 1 out i go back to my previous post where they set up the double play ball because they know Bonds has no speed and if a ground ball is hit it will be easy to turn and get out of the inning even if the bases are loaded.
For that matter, the pitchers opposing Bonds will do what the manager tells them to. If they are told to walk him, they will do so. The same applies to pitching to him.
Not all the time, some managers let the pitcher and catcher decide if they want to walk the batter.
It is obvious that you havea personal view on this HR record chase.
Not really.
That's fine; because I do too. I'm just of the mind that until Bonds is actually found guilty of anything, these charges are merely accusations (or name slandering) and nothing more.
We cannot judge players merely on character. If we could, Ty Cobb wouldn't have been allowed to clean toilets at Cooperstown; let alone be inducted into it. The sad part is that there are many more cases.
An earlier post spoke of evidence that "strongly suggests" the steroid use. What do you think about that? If this "evidence" is so strong, should we try Bonds now or not? Could it be that the PR of another major record being broken be that valuable to MLB that everything else must be seconded to this marketing bonanza? I'm sure we are all aware of the PR that benefitted baseball during the McGwire/Sosa race to Roger Maris's record and the subsequent breaking of it and the subsequent breaking of that new record!
These were the thoughts a friend gave me. He is a fanatic of baseball but he sees the purity of the game (as he referred to it) being prostituted. He began by blaming Donald Fehr and the player's union- but that's another subject entirely.

Sosa I will applaud over his breaking of the record back then when he and McGwire were battling. Everyone knew from the start that McGwire was juicing because if you saw him back when he played for Oakland, he was a skinny little twig. Then all of a sudden he is traded to St. Louis and BAM he is bulked up. Yeah you dont gain that much muscle from working out over that short of time. Same thing happened to Bonds. In the 90's when he played for the Pirates he was medium build in the arms now that he is a Giant....his arms are GIANT.

nuttyjoe · 06-06-2007, 02:09 PM

You are correct on all your facts; sir, but you still didn't tell me your opinion of whether the case should be tried now, or should we just keep offering our personal guesses.
In the case I quoted, the Giants were at bat with two outs. I can only surmise that the reason for the walk was to create the forced out at any base. I just had never (and stll haven't) heard of intentionally bringing the go-ahead run to the plate-in any occasion; no matter whom the batter.Now granted the team was my local Chicago Cubs (not the smartest team); but somebody will have to explain that reasoning to me.
What do you think of the HR record in relation to the marketing and PR bonanza involved? Do you think this is what is MLB's foremost concern? Is the purity ( I'm going to ask my friend to explain what he means by this) of baseball being prostituted? My friend thinks so.
Now, If you are going to use a player's size as your base point in this, Sammy Sosa as a Texas Ranger when he first came to the big leagues was less than a twig.Can you account for him?

Hio · 06-06-2007, 04:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nuttyjoe

You are correct on all your facts; sir, but you still didn't tell me your opinion of whether the case should be tried now, or should we just keep offering our personal guesses.
Well I dont honestly think that we should haul off and shut down the season right now to throw Bonds at a court but if/when he does break the record at the end of the season before crowning him the King of Swing :P there needs to be a very indepth investigation over it all.
In the case I quoted, the Giants were at bat with two outs. I can only surmise that the reason for the walk was to create the forced out at any base. I just had never (and stll haven't) heard of intentionally bringing the go-ahead run to the plate-in any occasion; no matter whom the batter.Now granted the team was my local Chicago Cubs (not the smartest team); but somebody will have to explain that reasoning to me.
With two outs then yes you are correct with having a force out at every base. So if the ball is hit to the left side of the infield the player has the decision to go to third or throw to second for an easy out rather then make a long throw to first with the risk of error making things worse.
What do you think of the HR record in relation to the marketing and PR bonanza involved? Do you think this is what is MLB's foremost concern? Is the purity ( I'm going to ask my friend to explain what he means by this) of baseball being prostituted? My friend thinks so.
I think MLB both likes and dislikes the PR over this. Yes more people are interested in baseball because of the controversy. It has been said and said again that controversy sells so more money to them. But MLB doesnt like that THIS is what it takes to gain more popularity.
Now, If you are going to use a player's size as your base point in this, Sammy Sosa as a Texas Ranger when he first came to the big leagues was less than a twig.Can you account for him?

Correct! He was less then a twig when he joined the majors and he still was one with the Cubs when he broke the record. That is why I applaud him for breaking the record back then. Sammy's size now is due to him taking a year off from the majors to go back to his hometown and work on his game and return now.

nuttyjoe · 06-06-2007, 07:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hio

Correct! He was less then a twig when he joined the majors and he still was one with the Cubs when he broke the record. That is why I applaud him for breaking the record back then. Sammy's size now is due to him taking a year off from the majors to go back to his hometown and work on his game and return now.

I disagree with your idea of how Sosa was when he was a Cub. Did you take a look at his biceps when he was chasing Maris's record along with McGwire?
A reporter challenged him then at a press conference to prove he wasn't on steroids by "pissing in a cup-right now". Sosa ignored this statement at the time. Rightfully so, because there was no reason to believe he had used steroids at the time.
I just believe that until it is proven that Bonds has done wrong; there is no question of him owning the new record for HR's until someone else comes along to challenge it. By the way, I forgot to ask you what you thought of all the rumors and speculation that the baseball has been "juiced" for the last ten years or so. What do we do then?
Apart from Bonds home runs, steroids, and juiced baseballs-what do you think of the player's union and Donald Fehr?

drdjpete · 06-08-2007, 09:40 AM

Bonds is a major league ahole but his record should count. Steroids may have help him hit the ball farther when he makes contact but they don't help him put the bat on the ball.

Should any home runs in Colorado not count because the air is 10% thinner, giving the Rockies players an advantage for 81 games?

And Pete Rose should be in the Hall.

nuttyjoe · 06-08-2007, 11:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drdjpete

Bonds is a major league ahole but his record should count. Steroids may have help him hit the ball farther when he makes contact but they don't help him put the bat on the ball.

Should any home runs in Colorado not count because the air is 10% thinner, giving the Rockies players an advantage for 81 games?

And Pete Rose should be in the Hall.

I agree with you, Sir; in that Bonds is definitely a major league "A-hole". I like your point about Colorado, also- that will get people thinking. As much as I arevered Pete Rose as a youngster; I still have to agree with the lifetime ban because of the dark cloud that he cast upon baseball with his gambling. Who can honestly say how many, which,and exactly how games were affected or even "tanked" because of him? As I said earlier, Pete does not help himself much by changing his story every five years or so.

Hio · 06-08-2007, 04:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drdjpete

Should any home runs in Colorado not count because the air is 10% thinner, giving the Rockies players an advantage for 81 games?

And Pete Rose should be in the Hall.

When was the last time the Rockies were in the world series? Were they ever in the world series? Shows how much they take advantage of their 10% thinner air.

And I agree with nuttyjoe on the Pete Rose deal.

mattimeo · 06-11-2007, 01:14 AM

The thinner air really dosen't present the rockies with an advantage -- in fact it actually hurts the teams performance. Yes, their hitters may be able to carry a fly ball farther when they play a home game, but their oppnents enjoy the same conditions while playing them, therefore they can also hit a bit further. The pitchers for Colorodo actually suffer an unfair disadvantage in the thin air. Because of less air resistance balls break less on the way to the plate, making it easier for hitters. Their pitchers face this reality 80 times a year and are often knocked out of games early because of it, putting their bullpen to extra use and, in the long run, hurting thier performance due to the extra strain they put on their arms through the course of a season.

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