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Gun Control Debate and defend whether or not you believe that the second amendment protects individual rights to bear arms.

View Poll Results: Support gun control?
Yes 11 42.31%
No 14 53.85%
Undecided 1 3.85%
Voters: 26. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 04-29-2005, 02:19 PM   #61 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FAndy
Ok.. I looked it up and saw you were right... I got it from a faulty source...
STILL :

Comma - It is used to mark off separate elements in a sentence: introductory clauses, words in a series, parenthetical phrases, or interjections.

I still don't see how your statement proves that you are still write about the original intention of the amendment -- stating that it needs to be amended.. If it needed to be "amended" or was an "archaic law" wouldn't that be saying..that there is a problem with the true law in the first place?

Semicolon or not they are still independent clauses.

Wow. That was pretty petty. It is the SAME SENTENCE.
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Old 04-29-2005, 02:36 PM   #62 (permalink)
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The original draft had ONE comma not Three, there for indicating a separtion of clauses...
http://www.saf.org/images/BillofRights.gif


NOT TO MENTION.....


Colorado Constitution Article II, Section 13

The right of no person to keep and bear arms in defense of his home, person and property, or in aid of the civil power when thereto legally summoned, shall be called in question; but nothing herein contained shall be construed to justify the practice of carrying concealed weapons.


Connecticut Constitution Article I, Section 15

Every citizen has a right to bear arms in defense of himself and the state.

Delaware Constitution Article I, Section 20

A person has the right to keep and bear arms for the defense of self, family, home and State, and for hunting and recreational use.


Illinois Constitution Article I, Section 22

Subject only to the police power, the right of the individual citizen to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.



Indiana Constitution Article I, Section 32

The people shall have a right to bear arms, for the defense of themselves and the State.



Kansas Constitution Bill of Rights 4

The people have the right to bear arms for their defense and security; but standing armies, in time of peace, are dangerous to liberty, and shall not be tolerated, and the military shall be in strict subordination to the civil power. (THIS RIGHT HERE disproves your militia theory)



There are so many more... I just don't have time to put all 50 down.

The state constitutions back up what the Bill of Rights says. [/img]
\"It is the soldier, not the reporter who has given us the freedom of speech.
It is the soldier, not the campus organizer, who gives us the freedom to demonstrate.
It is the soldier who salutes the flag, who serves beneath the flag,
and whose coffin is draped by the flag, who allows the protestor to burn the flag.
Father Dennis Edward O\'Brien
Old 04-29-2005, 06:44 PM   #63 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FAndy
The original draft had ONE comma not Three, there for indicating a separtion of clauses...
http://www.saf.org/images/BillofRights.gif


NOT TO MENTION.....


Colorado Constitution Article II, Section 13

The right of no person to keep and bear arms in defense of his home, person and property, or in aid of the civil power when thereto legally summoned, shall be called in question; but nothing herein contained shall be construed to justify the practice of carrying concealed weapons.


Connecticut Constitution Article I, Section 15

Every citizen has a right to bear arms in defense of himself and the state.

Delaware Constitution Article I, Section 20

A person has the right to keep and bear arms for the defense of self, family, home and State, and for hunting and recreational use.


Illinois Constitution Article I, Section 22

Subject only to the police power, the right of the individual citizen to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.



Indiana Constitution Article I, Section 32

The people shall have a right to bear arms, for the defense of themselves and the State.



Kansas Constitution Bill of Rights 4

The people have the right to bear arms for their defense and security; but standing armies, in time of peace, are dangerous to liberty, and shall not be tolerated, and the military shall be in strict subordination to the civil power. (THIS RIGHT HERE disproves your militia theory)



There are so many more... I just don't have time to put all 50 down.

The state constitutions back up what the Bill of Rights says. [/img]

Keep diggin
Old 04-29-2005, 08:31 PM   #64 (permalink)
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I would argue to you that the current gun control laws in existence today are in and of themselves unconstitutional. The 2nd Amendment ends with the words shall not be infringed. Those are powerful words. The Meriam-Webster online dictionary defines infringe as:

to encroach upon in a way that violates law or the rights of another

The right to bear arms is an absolute, therefore any law that restricts the ownership of arms is unconstitutional.

dmk
Conservatism, I repeat is not an ideology. It does not breed fanatics....But if you want men who seek, reasonably and prudently, to reconcile the best in wisdom of our ancestors with the change which is essential to a vigorous civil social existence, then you will do well to turn to conservative principles
-Russell Kirk-
Old 04-29-2005, 08:41 PM   #65 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sgtdmski
I would argue to you that the current gun control laws in existence today are in and of themselves unconstitutional. The 2nd Amendment ends with the words shall not be infringed. Those are powerful words. The Meriam-Webster online dictionary defines infringe as:

to encroach upon in a way that violates law or the rights of another

The right to bear arms is an absolute, therefore any law that restricts the ownership of arms is unconstitutional.

dmk
Absolute if you are in the militia, which doesn't exist in that sense anymore


Regardless these laws were made in a VERY different time. They simple don't apply to modern times anymore. They made sense then... now they are only detracting from the security of society.
Old 04-30-2005, 08:40 AM   #66 (permalink)
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hevusa,a question for you.Do you agree or disagree that the Bill of Rights was ratified at the same time?Not just the first 3 and then a month later the next 2 and then a year later the next 5 but all at the same time. Why would the writers of the Bill of Rights enumerate individual rights in all but the 2nd Amendment.It does not make sense.
The Second Amendment's recognition of a "right" that belongs to "the people" indicates a right of individuals. The word "right," standing by itself in the Constitution, is clear. Although in some contexts entities other than individuals are said to have "rights," (37) the Constitution itself does not use the word "right" in this manner. Setting aside the Second Amendment, not once does the Constitution confer a "right" on any governmental entity, state or federal. Nor does it confer any "right" restricted to persons in governmental service, such as members of an organized military unit. In addition to its various references to a "right of the people" discussed below, the Constitution in the Sixth Amendment secures "right[s]" to an accused person, and in the Seventh secures a person's "right" to a jury trial in civil cases. (3 By contrast, governments, whether state or federal, have in the Constitution only "powers" or "authority." (39) It would be a marked anomaly if "right" in the Second Amendment departed from such uniform usage throughout the Constitution.
This again is from the DOJ opinion on the 2nd amendment.
http://www.usdoj.gov/olc/secondamendment2.htm
Old 04-30-2005, 08:42 AM   #67 (permalink)
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Sorry the got in there by copy and paste from the original online document.
Old 04-30-2005, 12:34 PM   #68 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by duncanmac
Sorry the got in there by copy and paste from the original online document.

I just don't understand why people are so fond of something intentionally designed to inflict damage against another human being in this day and age. Where the hell are we as a people and society? It is like I am living in the dark ages. In my travels no other country's people feel this way about weapons and no other country has gun related violence like we do in America.

1 and 2 shot riffles are good for hunting. Handguns and the rest are designed to kill humans. Archaic.

The empire is falling.
Old 04-30-2005, 12:54 PM   #69 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hevusa
Quote:
Originally Posted by duncanmac
Sorry the got in there by copy and paste from the original online document.

I just don't understand why people are so fond of something intentionally designed to inflict damage against another human being in this day and age. Where the hell are we as a people and society? It is like I am living in the dark ages. In my travels no other country's people feel this way about weapons and no other country has gun related violence like we do in America.

1 and 2 shot riffles are good for hunting. Handguns and the rest are designed to kill humans. Archaic.

The empire is falling.
Hevusa, it's not so much the physical effect guns have on people, it's the psychological effect. In this country, you are allowed to carry a sidearm, plain and simple. When people see that sidearm, they know you're not to be messed with; not because you're a crazy fucker who'll shoot them though, but because you're willing to protect you, your family, and your property if it means using a gun.

And competant gun user knows that in protecting oneself, the idea is not to kill the attacker, but simply to get them away from you. Look, if you're going to put one in a guy's leg because your life depends on it, I have no problem with that.
\"Are we justified in using articles, no matter how convenient it may be for us to use them, that we know were produced in conditions which bored and even stultified the human beings who had to make them?\"
-John Seymour
Old 04-30-2005, 01:00 PM   #70 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by onlyoneplanet
Quote:
Originally Posted by hevusa
Quote:
Originally Posted by duncanmac
Sorry the got in there by copy and paste from the original online document.

I just don't understand why people are so fond of something intentionally designed to inflict damage against another human being in this day and age. Where the hell are we as a people and society? It is like I am living in the dark ages. In my travels no other country's people feel this way about weapons and no other country has gun related violence like we do in America.

1 and 2 shot riffles are good for hunting. Handguns and the rest are designed to kill humans. Archaic.

The empire is falling.
Hevusa, it's not so much the physical effect guns have on people, it's the psychological effect. In this country, you are allowed to carry a sidearm, plain and simple. When people see that sidearm, they know you're not to be messed with; not because you're a crazy fucker who'll shoot them though, but because you're willing to protect you, your family, and your property if it means using a gun.

And competant gun user knows that in protecting oneself, the idea is not to kill the attacker, but simply to get them away from you. Look, if you're going to put one in a guy's leg because your life depends on it, I have no problem with that.

We need to get to the point as a society where it is not even needed. If we cover the bases and take care of everyone from the bottom up there would be no need. The goal here should be getting as far from the gun as possible. And we, instead, are running right towards it. It is that lack of forethought that has been the American way for too long. We would rather have a quick solution than to actually address the problem, and we end up cleaning up bigger messes than we would have if we would just address the root.
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