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Gun Control Debate and defend whether or not you believe that the second amendment protects individual rights to bear arms.

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Old 12-13-2007, 03:25 PM   #141 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by garysher View Post
Even a first year law student knows you have to give reasons for your assertions.

Firstly, it is not at all clear that Horn meant he would only kill them IF they tried to kill him.
My reason is the context of the conversation. It was clear to me. I think it would be clear to any unbiased jury.
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A few seconds earlier he had said he wasn't going to let them get away with it.
Which meant he intended to try and stop them. No intent to murder to be seen there unless you are biased.
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Secondly, he had refused to act under a direct police order to stay indoors, where he would not have been at any risk from the two burglars.
True. That is why I have already said that he should probably be charged with some form of criminal homicide.
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Thirdly, neither of the burglars were armed. He shot them in cold blood when neither had tried to attack him.
According to Horn's statement they were coming toward him and had a crowbar. Sounds like an attempt to attack to me.
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BTW even Horn has since expressed remorse for what he did and for the family.

You may think shooting and killing two people is no big deal, because you exist in a fantasy, TV-driven consciousness.
Your personal attacks grew stale about 4 years ago.
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Old 12-13-2007, 03:29 PM   #142 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by garysher View Post
So if they had been US citizens then he should just winged them?
No, U.S. citizens breaking into my house will get the same .38 slug as anybody else.
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Old 12-13-2007, 03:31 PM   #143 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by CrazyFlamingos View Post
My reason is the context of the conversation. It was clear to me. I think it would be clear to any unbiased jury.

You still aren't explaining WHY it was clear to you that "I'm gonna kill them" did NOT mean he intended to kill them!

How else should an unbiased jury interpret "I'm gonna kill them"?



Which meant he intended to try and stop them. No intent to murder to be seen there unless you are biased.

If there was no intent to murder then why did he say "I'm gonna kill them"?


True. That is why I have already said that he should probably be charged with some form of criminal homicide.

"Murder one" - as they say on all your favourite TV cop shows

According to Horn's statement they were coming toward him and had a crowbar. Sounds like an attempt to attack to me.

Your personal attacks grew stale about 4 years ago.
Has it been that long? How sweet that you're counting.

Actually it wasn't a personal attack, I was merely interpreting the context of your statement
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Old 12-13-2007, 03:31 PM   #144 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CrazyFlamingos View Post

Those two statements that you think condemn him are can very easily mean something else in the context of the conversation.

"I'm not going to let them get away with it," simply meant that he intended to go outside and try to stop them from leaving.

And
"I'm gonna kill them." was a direct response to the dispatcher saying to Horn, "You're going to get yourself shot if you go outside that house with a gun. I don't care what you think."

Clearly Horn meant that if the two men tried to kill him, they would be the ones killed.

Only the most rabid anti-gun fanatic could pretend that those statements indicate an intent to commit murder.

(See how that works?)
That's why I hate when people pick and choose statements like that and use them out of context. Dead on CrazyF.
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Old 12-13-2007, 03:45 PM   #145 (permalink)
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That's why I hate when people pick and choose statements like that and use them out of context. Dead on CrazyF.
Who's asking you??!
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Old 12-13-2007, 03:47 PM   #146 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Gadgetory View Post
I don't think robbing a house justifies killing someone especially when it wasn't even your house.

Hindsight is 20/20, but in the moment when an aggressor is willing to violate one's individual rights and sovereignty, they have given up their moral authority. An act of aggression that violates another's individual rights, "the cause", gives the victim moral authority and the right to take life in defence of one's own sovereignty. Defence is a moral imperative, because the price of individual freedom is eternal vigilance. Individual responsibility balances individual rights.
Old 12-13-2007, 03:47 PM   #147 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by garysher View Post
You still aren't explaining WHY it was clear to you that "I'm gonna kill them" did NOT mean he intended to kill them!

How else should an unbiased jury interpret "I'm gonna kill them"?
Asked and answered. I refer you to my previous post.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrazyFlamingos View Post
And "I'm gonna kill them." was a direct response to the dispatcher saying to Horn, "You're going to get yourself shot if you go outside that house with a gun. I don't care what you think."

Clearly Horn meant that if the two men tried to kill him, they would be the ones killed.
Quote:
If there was no intent to murder then why did he say "I'm gonna kill them"?
Asked and answered. I refer you to my previous post.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrazyFlamingos View Post
And "I'm gonna kill them." was a direct response to the dispatcher saying to Horn, "You're going to get yourself shot if you go outside that house with a gun. I don't care what you think."

Clearly Horn meant that if the two men tried to kill him, they would be the ones killed.
Right now America spends $700 billion every year on foreign oil. That's our money going overseas when it could be staying here. We have to stop this. That's why I support the Pickens Plan. Check out the website at www.pickensplan.com. If you like what you see, please join me as a Pickens Plan supporter.

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Old 12-13-2007, 03:51 PM   #148 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CrazyFlamingos View Post
Asked and answered. I refer you to my previous post.

Asked and answered. I refer you to my previous post.

Nope, You didn't answer either in your previous posts. You merely said:

"Clearly Horn meant that if the two men tried to kill him, they would be the ones killed."

but you didn't even try to explain why that was "clearly" the case.

So it was your interpretation without any substantiation - your usual MO for the last four years.
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Old 12-13-2007, 03:52 PM   #149 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jenifer Johnson View Post
Hindsight is 20/20, but in the moment when an aggressor is willing to violate one's individual rights and sovereignty, they have given up their moral authority. An act of aggression that violates another's individual rights, "the cause", gives the victim moral authority and the right to take life in defence of one's own sovereignty. Defence is a moral imperative, because the price of individual freedom is eternal vigilance. Individual responsibility balances individual rights.
SO do you believe that it is a moral right to murder another human being in cold blood?
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Old 12-13-2007, 03:52 PM   #150 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gadgetory View Post
We do not execute people for larceny in this country. If you want people to be executed for larceny move to Iran or China.

If the cops catch you breaking into a home and you run. You WILL be shot. Just as it seems in this case.


Why are people ignorant of the law??

I don't know why people would break and enter like that. Even here in Ga you run the risk of getting lead lodged in your skull.


You do not have a right to shoot someone in a neighbors yard. He left his house with a gun for the sole purpose of shooting people. That is murder with fore thought. Its illegal. Its immoral. People are way to obssessed with their stuff, their TV as if this is really important?

I don't know about that. If it were that cut and dry, he'd already be arrested. If that can be demonstrated as protecting property, I don't see a problem with it. It's not like they shot a meter reader.


You priorities are whacked. What is more important is what would of happened if the 2 armed men had guns and shot the crazy cowboy and killed him?? They'd be guilty of felony murder of course but that guys family would also be without him. The law with regards to justifiable homicide (and it is homicide killing someone for any reason outsid of actual war is illegal, even the police have to prove their shooting was justified by the same standards as we are held too) is meant to protect the entire community.

I don't think you've read the Texas law. You can kill a person to protect your property there and many other jurisdictions. And count me among those with whacked priorities, if somebody wants some stuff, they can koin the military and get kidney failure like I did. Screw them taking mine.


If someone breaks into my house and threatens me I'll help them pack the truck because its just stuff and not as important as my life or that of my family. As you've got an obsession with material possessions I assume you differ in this regard. Any one that thinks their TV is more important then the life of someone else (even 2 robbers) and or your own life needs to seek help from a mental health professional.

What if while you are packing their stuff, one of them is raping your daughter or your wife? Will you still be willing to give them what is "yours"? The security of my home and my piece of mind that some asshole that threatened my family is lying bleeding to death would bring a great amount of satisfaction. Your tax dollars trained me to kill you know.


All you all are so caught up in the fact that these guys were illegal aliens and stealing you want there to be no legal system. Get a freakin reality check.

"Illegal alien" is only an adjective. What kept the man legal is they WERE thieves and there is proof they stole from his neighbor.

What would you all think if these guys were Americans and were stealing so they could feed themselves. It does happen not all robberies are caused by drug addiction..would it then be justified or are you all going to continue your hypocritical double standard. It is a double standard to say that because someone was breaking the law someone else has the right to break the law.

But Mr. Horn wasn't breaking the law, it seems the only law breaking individuals are dead. You seem to be arguing the wrong thing.....again.
Texas shooting of burglars at neighbors' raises debate - The Boston Globe
It looks like he called the police but they took too long so he took care of it himself. I have no problem with this. Here's the law.
A Keyboard and a .45: Texas Castle Doctrine/Stand Your Ground Bill
He has the right to shoot his neighbors burglar by my initial interpretation.
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