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Gun Control Debate and defend whether or not you believe that the second amendment protects individual rights to bear arms.

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Old 12-19-2007, 11:47 AM   #231 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by garysher View Post
When the burglars were already fleeing self-protection is a moot point..

Not according to the law. Once again you give the criminals your support while you ignore what the law actually states. So here goes the law lesson. The Texas Penal code allows for an individual to:

Quote:
§ 9.42. DEADLY FORCE TO PROTECT PROPERTY. A person is
justified in using deadly force against another to protect land or
tangible, movable property:
(1) if he would be justified in using force against the
other under Section 9.41; and
(2) when and to the degree he reasonably believes the
deadly force is immediately necessary:
(A) to prevent the other's imminent commission of
arson, burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, theft during the
nighttime, or criminal mischief during the nighttime; or
(B) to prevent the other who is fleeing
immediately after committing burglary, robbery, aggravated
robbery, or theft during the nighttime from escaping with the
property; and
(3) he reasonably believes that:
(A) the land or property cannot be protected or
recovered by any other means; or
(B) the use of force other than deadly force to
protect or recover the land or property would expose the actor or
another to a substantial risk of death or serious bodily injury.
Now was Horn justified in defending his neighbor's property?? What does the law say:


Quote:
§ 9.43. PROTECTION OF THIRD PERSON'S PROPERTY. A person
is justified in using force or deadly force against another to
protect land or tangible, movable property of a third person if,
under the circumstances as he reasonably believes them to be, the
actor would be justified under Section 9.41 or 9.42 in using force
or deadly force to protect his own land or property and:
(1) the actor reasonably believes the unlawful
interference constitutes attempted or consummated theft of or
criminal mischief to the tangible, movable property; or
(2) the actor reasonably believes that:
(A) the third person has requested his protection
of the land or property;
(B) he has a legal duty to protect the third
person's land or property; or
(C) the third person whose land or property he
uses force or deadly force to protect is the actor's spouse, parent,
or child, resides with the actor, or is under the actor's care.
So lets see a Section 9.42 (2) (b) applies, the individuals had committed the burglary and were beginning to flee the scene with property, so the use of deadly force under the law is allowed by an individual. Now did Mr Horn as a neighbor have the authority to use this force, for that we look to Section 9.43 (1) and see that he did.

So according to the law, Mr Horn is not a criminal as you have repeatedly called him but rather a law-abiding citizen for the simple fact that he actually followed the laws of the state in which he lived.

dmk
Conservatism, I repeat is not an ideology. It does not breed fanatics....But if you want men who seek, reasonably and prudently, to reconcile the best in wisdom of our ancestors with the change which is essential to a vigorous civil social existence, then you will do well to turn to conservative principles
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Old 12-19-2007, 11:50 AM   #232 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gadgetory View Post
See as the dead people were never convicted of a crime and won't be as it stands now some guy in Texas saw 2 black people (they were black Colombians) in his neighbors’ yard and assumed they were up to no good. The fact they were up to no good is for the police and legal system to establish. Shot whilst black is what happened. Makes you want to make sure your kid never goes to that neighborhood doesn't it??

And I don't care they robbed the house. Look up presumption of innocence and due process and stop being ignorant.
And you like Garysher need the lesson in law I just gave. Once again it goes to the simple premise had the two not been engaged in a crime in the first place they would not have died. Your ignorance of the law in this case has made you ignorant in this posting.

dmk
Conservatism, I repeat is not an ideology. It does not breed fanatics....But if you want men who seek, reasonably and prudently, to reconcile the best in wisdom of our ancestors with the change which is essential to a vigorous civil social existence, then you will do well to turn to conservative principles
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Old 12-19-2007, 11:52 AM   #233 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gadgetory View Post
Here I will help you out with the question.

Self-defense is crucially a matter of timing. If the defensive force is used too soon in relation to the fruition of the threatened aggression, the force is a preemptive attack and unjustified. If used too late, that is, after the aggression is complete, it is retaliation and is also unjustified. The general rule is that defensive force can only be used against aggression that is imminent or about to occur (State v. Norman, 378 S.E.2d 8 (N.C. 1989)).

Justification: Self-Defense - History, Theories, Modern Law, Reasonableness, Necessary Force, Deadly Force And The Duty To Retreat
A Great Lesson in what applies in all Fifty States, however, you failed to examine what is allowed in Texas. Again ignorance of the law.

dmk
Conservatism, I repeat is not an ideology. It does not breed fanatics....But if you want men who seek, reasonably and prudently, to reconcile the best in wisdom of our ancestors with the change which is essential to a vigorous civil social existence, then you will do well to turn to conservative principles
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Old 12-19-2007, 11:54 AM   #234 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by garysher View Post

Yes.

But that doesn't mean we have the right to shoot fleeing burglars in cold blood when they posed no threat to this redneck "ocker" Joe Horn.

I can see why you're a taxi-driver and not a lawyer!
There you go again Limey. Showing your bigotry.

dmk
Conservatism, I repeat is not an ideology. It does not breed fanatics....But if you want men who seek, reasonably and prudently, to reconcile the best in wisdom of our ancestors with the change which is essential to a vigorous civil social existence, then you will do well to turn to conservative principles
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Old 12-19-2007, 03:01 PM   #235 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sgtdmski View Post
Why is he a redneck, because he is southern or from Texas?

Not only that, but also because he was so eager to resort to 19th century vigilante justice.



OK Limey we will keep this in mind. Another bigot showing his colors.

dmk
I'm proud to be English and take "limey" as a compliment! But what is there about my opinion that is specifically "limey"?
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Old 12-19-2007, 03:05 PM   #236 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sgtdmski View Post
Not according to the law. Once again you give the criminals your support while you ignore what the law actually states. So here goes the law lesson. The Texas Penal code allows for an individual to:



Now was Horn justified in defending his neighbor's property?? What does the law say:




So lets see a Section 9.42 (2) (b) applies, the individuals had committed the burglary and were beginning to flee the scene with property, so the use of deadly force under the law is allowed by an individual. Now did Mr Horn as a neighbor have the authority to use this force, for that we look to Section 9.43 (1) and see that he did.

So according to the law, Mr Horn is not a criminal as you have repeatedly called him but rather a law-abiding citizen for the simple fact that he actually followed the laws of the state in which he lived.

dmk
Where does the law state that a citizen HAS to shoot at unarmed burglars in order to follow the law?

He was not in jeopardy and could just as easily have left it to the police as they had pleaded with him to do, instead of taking two lives - an action that even he feels severe remorse for.

Just because one has a right to do something doesn't make it the right thing to do, and this law seems to encourage vigilante "justice".
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Old 12-19-2007, 03:07 PM   #237 (permalink)
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I can see why you're a taxi-driver and not a lawyer!

Quote:
Originally Posted by sgtdmski View Post
There you go again Limey. Showing your bigotry.

dmk
I was merely stating the facts - if you read his posts you will quickly get my point!

I have nothing against taxi-drivers in fact I used to be one for about 6 months - how about you?
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Old 12-19-2007, 03:49 PM   #238 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by garysher View Post
Where does the law state that a citizen HAS to shoot at unarmed burglars in order to follow the law?

He was not in jeopardy and could just as easily have left it to the police as they had pleaded with him to do, instead of taking two lives - an action that even he feels severe remorse for.

Just because one has a right to do something doesn't make it the right thing to do, and this law seems to encourage vigilante "justice".
The law says that you can shoot if there is reasonable doubt that the property will ever be recovered. The citizen doesn't HAVE to shoot. But the criminal doesn't HAVE to B@E.
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Old 12-19-2007, 03:49 PM   #239 (permalink)
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CNN — LOU DOBBS TONIGHT — Aired December 18, 2007 — 19:00 ET

KITTY PILGRIM, GUEST HOST: The controversial case of Joe Horn. He's the Texas man that shot and killed two unarmed burglars. It's reigniting the opinion on gun ownership in the country. A new CNN Research Corporation poll finds an overwhelming majority, 65 percent, believe the constitution guarantees the right to own a gun; 31 percent disagree. Joining me for more on the Horn case is his lawyer, Tom Lambright and he joins us from Houston tonight. Thank you for being with us.

TOM LAMBRIGHT, JOE HORN'S ATTORNEY: Thank you.

PILGRIM: At this point, your client has not been arrested, indicted or charged. Does Texas law protect him at this point?

LAMBRIGHT: The case has to be heard by the grand jury first. They can bind him to true billing or no billing. That's going to be the process.

PILGRIM: Let's listen for a moment for the benefit of our viewers to the 911 call made by Mr. Horn. This happened at the time he sees suspects stealing from his neighbor's house.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

JOE HORN: They just stole something. I'm going to go out the window. I'm not going to let them get away with this (EXPLETIVE) they just stole something. They got a bag of something.

OPERATOR: Mr. Horn, stay in the house.

HORN: I'm doing it.

OPERATOR: Mr. Horn, do not go outside the house.

HORN: I'm sorry. This ain't right buddy.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

PILGRIM: Now, the operator clearly saying for Mr. Horn to stay in the house. How do you respond to the idea that this entire situation could have been avoided if he had done that?

LAMBRIGHT: I think it would have been better avoided if the two individuals had not burglarized the neighbor's house. Mr. Horn certainly had a right to go outside while he had 911 on the phone to try to give them additional information.

PILGRIM: It's a fair point. They were burglarizing a house. Let's listen to another portion of the 911 tape and this is a part where Mr. Horn confronts the suspects in the yard.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

HORN: Move, you're dead.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

PILGRIM: Did Mr. Horn believe his life was in danger? Isn't that critical to the whole situation?

LAMBRIGHT: I believe he did believe it was in danger. We have a Pasadena police officer that was in the process of rolling to the scene another at the time these individuals were out in the yard facing each other. He says that once Mr. Horn told him not to move, they rushed Mr. Horn. He's holding a shotgun.

PILGRIM: Where does Texas law stand on this?

LAMBRIGHT: Well obviously Mr. Horn has a right to be in his yard. If he believes they're trying to do him harm, especially serious bodily injury or death, he has a right to respond with deadly force.

PILGRIM: How does he feel about the whole incident?

LAMBRIGHT: He wished it never happened. He would like to go back and when he heard the glass breaking, not do anything.

PILGRIM: Since this incident, there have been protests for and against Mr. Horn's actions. He has received death threats. Joe Horn is also your personal friend as well as your client. How is he reacting to all of this?

LAMBRIGHT: I think he's taking the threats seriously. He doesn't know who the individuals are but I think any time somebody makes a threat to take your life, I think you have to take it seriously.

PILGRIM: I would like to listen to the man from the New Black Panther Nation. He made comments about the people that support Mr. Horn. Let's listen to that for a second.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

QUANELL X, NEW BLACK PANTHER NATION: You have so many people in the community calling him a hero. How could you do that if he shoots two unarmed men in the back, one twice and one once, they were fleeing and running from you. When someone is running from you and you shoot them in the back and they are unarmed, you are not a hero.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PILGRIM: How do you feel about that comment?

LAMBRIGHT: I believe that the people supporting Mr. Horn are making a statement against crime. In general with regard to the particulars in this case, I don't believe one of the individuals were shot in the back. But once again, these two individuals knew what they were doing was dangerous work. They could have simply gotten an honest job and avoided the whole situation.

PILGRIM: Tom Lambright, thank you very much for appearing on the broadcast tonight. Thank you, sir.
Old 12-19-2007, 04:47 PM   #240 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fxashun View Post
The law says that you can shoot if there is reasonable doubt that the property will ever be recovered. The citizen doesn't HAVE to shoot. But the criminal doesn't HAVE to B@E.

You sound like that granny character when she keeps trying to justify abortion and skirt around the moral issue by saying an unborn child is only a ZEF or whatever!

Nobody questions the fact that the burglars shouldn't have been there but the question remains whether this nutcase Horn should have slaughtered them both to get some kind of perverse thrill under the pretext of trying to protect his neighbour's property.
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