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Gun Control Debate and defend whether or not you believe that the second amendment protects individual rights to bear arms.

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Old 03-18-2008, 06:53 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Englands Gun crimes 4 times higher since ban

Ministers 'covered up' gun crime - Times Online

Ministers 'covered up' gun crime



David Leppard


THE government was accused yesterday of covering up the full extent of the gun crime epidemic sweeping Britain, after official figures showed that gun-related killings and injuries had risen more than fourfold since 1998.
The Home Office figures - which exclude crimes involving air weapons - show the number of deaths and injuries caused by gun attacks in England and Wales soared from 864 in 1998-99 to 3,821 in 2005-06. That means that more than 10 people are injured or killed in a gun attack every day.
This weekend the Tories said the figures challenged claims by Jacqui Smith, the home secretary, that gun crime was falling. David Davis, the shadow home secretary, tells her in a letter today that the “staggering findings” show her claims that gun crime has fallen are “inaccurate and misleading”.
The political row erupted as Merseyside police continued to question a 15-year-old boy about the murder last week of Rhys Jones in Croxteth, Liver-pool. The 11-year-old was returning from football training when he was shot by a hooded teenager on a bicycle.

How worried should we be about gun crime?

Serious gun crime is concentrated in particular parts of England; internationally, the country has a low death rate from guns


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Experts are examining a BMX bike abandoned in another area of the city. Six other teenagers, including two girls, from the Croxteth and Norris Green areas were in custody last night. Two others have been released on bail.
Senior officers believe Rhys died because he walked into the line of fire between the gunman and his intended target, who is thought to have been one of three teenagers 30-70 yards away.
Bernard Hogan-Howe, the chief constable of Merseyside, said yesterday: “We still need help in solving this crime. We need witnesses who are prepared to stand up in court.”
Hogan-Howe said he had invested “a huge amount of policing” into the gang-related problems in the Croxteth area and had had a great deal of success.
A minute’s applause was held yesterday at Goodison Park stadium where Everton, the team Rhys loved, were playing Black-burn Rovers. The 11-year-old’s murder has led to a public outcry against Britain’s gang and gun culture and a furious political debate about the government’s efforts to tackle the problem.
Smith last night proposed the setting up of neutral “drop-off zones” where illegal weapons could be handed in. “This means we can actually take that gun out of circulation and stop it from doing harm,” she said.
The Home Office has repeatedly denied gun crime is rising. Last week it pointed to the latest annual crime statistics, which appeared to show that overall gun crime was 13% down on the previous year.
But in his letter to Smith, released today, Davis said these claims were contradicted by figures “buried” in a Home Office statistical bulletin, published ear-lier this year. “[Here] we find the most revealing indication of the true gun-re-lated violence sweeping Britain. Gun-related killings and injuries (excluding air weapons) have increased over fourfold since 1998,” he wrote.
The Home Office said: "We remain fully committed to tackling gang culture and gun and knife crime through responsive policing, tough powers and funding prevention projects."
Rhys’s killing fell on the anniversary of the fatal shooting of Liam Smith, a senior figure in a local gang known as the Strand Gang. Several members of the rival Croxteth Crew were found guilty of his murder.
Locals had said they believed members of the Strand Gang were planning a reprisal shooting to mark the anniversary.
“We always deploy additional resources around these anniversaries,” said Chief Superintendent Chris Armitt. “But we are over half a mile here from Croxteth, and Norris Green is further away again. The additional resources [were] focused only where gangs predominantly operate.”
Extract from letter by David Davis, shadow home secretary, to Jacqui Smith, home secretary, August 24, 2007
Dear Jacqui, We are all concerned at the rising tide of violent crime that has manifested itself this week in a spate of shocking killings, including the tragic death of young Rhys Jones. You told GMTV this morning that “statistics aren’t a help but gun crime is down”. That is an extraordinary claim.
According to Home Office figures, gun crime (excluding air weapons) has almost doubled since Labour took office. The annual crime figures, released by the Home Office in July, suggest a 13% decrease on the previous year, which neglects the 18% increase in firearm homicides.
However, perhaps most telling is the massive increase in gun violence, disclosed on 25 January of this year (Homicides, Firearm Offences and Intimate Violence 2005-06, Home Office). Buried at page 36 . . . we find [that] . . . gun-related killings and injuries (excluding airguns) have increased by over fourfold since 1998.
In light of this information, your claim that gun crime is down is both inaccurate and misleading. One clear fact on gun-related violence is that if you don’t count it, you won’t be able to tackle it. Your predecessors opted for spin over substance. I hope that is a path you will avoid and would be grateful for an explanation of what action you plan.
Yours sincerely, David Davis

Last edited by Grace; 03-18-2008 at 06:56 AM.
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Old 03-18-2008, 06:55 AM   #2 (permalink)
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Looks like England isnt holyer than thou after all hu Gary?
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Old 03-18-2008, 10:19 AM   #3 (permalink)
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Maybe its time to re-arm the people of England, so they can have security again.
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Old 03-18-2008, 11:57 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grace View Post
Maybe its time to re-arm the people of England, so they can have security again.
Nope that's the last thing the British people want to do - otherwise we risk ending up like America!

That would be like saying that the answer to the drug problem is to make all drugs legal.

Even the British police oppose being armed because they know this will simply escalate the situation, which is exactly what has happened in America.

The British will sort out this problem in their usual stoic, determined style.

Just as we refused to give in to Hitler, so we will refuse to give in to an American-style gun culture and the endless slaughter that causes.

Off-duty San Diego police officer shoots woman, boy

From the Associated Press
2:44 AM PDT, March 18, 2008

Oceanside -- Authorities say a woman and her 8-year-old son are recovering after being shot by an off-duty San Diego police officer in an apparent case of road rage.

At about 9:15 p.m. Saturday, Officer Frank White fired at the woman's vehicle in a shopping center parking lot. Police say the incident began when one of the drivers cut the other one off.

Oceanside police say the woman -- who is in her 20s and married to a Marine -- was unarmed. She and her son remained hospitalized Monday evening with what authorities called non-life threatening injuries.

White, 28, is on administrative leave while Oceanside police investigate the shooting. San Diego police also are doing an internal investigation. He has worked for that agency since 2005.

Off-duty San Diego police officer shoots woman, boy - Los Angeles Times



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Old 03-18-2008, 12:25 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Nope that's the last thing the British people want to do - otherwise we risk ending up like America!




This proves that pound for pound, you ALREADY ARE LIKE AMERICA brother. Your goverment has LIED to you. Your gun crimes have risen 4 FOLD since your ban on guns. Why? Cause your criminals do not fear your civilians.
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Old 03-18-2008, 12:26 PM   #6 (permalink)
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What do your police do in a armed conflict?(in a british voice) STOP, or I'll say STOP again, lol
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Old 03-18-2008, 12:30 PM   #7 (permalink)
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BTW, maybe if Hitler didnt disarm his people before the mass slaughter of his own Germany people, there might be 6 million Jews (and others) still alive.
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Old 03-18-2008, 12:57 PM   #8 (permalink)
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What do your police do in a armed conflict?(in a british voice) STOP, or I'll say STOP again, lol
Most cities have police armed response units that can be called in when necessary.

As I explained the British police repeatedly oppose being issued with guns, or we would end up like America.
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Old 03-18-2008, 01:01 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Most cities have police armed response units that can be called in when necessary.

As I explained the British police repeatedly oppose being issued with guns, or we would end up like America.

Brother wake up, you already are. (not you per say) 4 times the crime since the ban brother. That says it all.
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Old 03-18-2008, 01:04 PM   #10 (permalink)
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BTW, maybe if Hitler didnt disarm his people before the mass slaughter of his own Germany people, there might be 6 million Jews (and others) still alive.
That's a complete misnomer Grace, like most of the other garbage quoted in the NRA handbook.

Those 6 million Jews couldn't have stopped Hitler with or without guns.

Many of the countries annexed by the Nazis during the 1930's had free access to firearms. That didn't stop them from being occupied.

Iraq has never had any gun control laws, and most Iraqis own guns. But that didn't stop Saddam from oppressing Iraq for over 30 years, nor the US from occupying it in 3 weeks!

Ditto Angola, Rwanda, Uganda under Amin, Chile under Pinochet and many many other examples.

The idea that gun ownership provides a defence against an army is nonsense.
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