Defending the Truth

Grace · 05-13-2008, 02:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hot dragon

Grace;

What do you suppose our gun crime rate would look like if you excluded illegals in the country. Or what it would look like excluding unregistered fire arms.

every country has unregistered firearms and illegal immigrants. these issues are not unique to america. even if they were, are you suggesting that illegal immigrants are responsible for the majority of your gun crimes? and, BTW, where do you think unregistered firearms come from? they come from shops selling under the counter or from thefts of guns from law abiding people. if you had less guns, you would have less unregistered guns too.

Im just saying we have a large amount of immigrants involved in gang activity, I bet at a higher rate than other countries.

Quote:

I bet it would be similar to other countries.

interesting speculation. so you need to make border security tighter and remove the unregistered guns from the hands of criminals. how are you going to do that without reforming your gun laws?

Reforming gun laws will only take guns outta the hands of law abiding folk

Quote:

You would also have to consider pound for pound the difference in size of other countries.

yes, this is important. absolute number of deaths is not really very useful. the usual statistic used in homicide is number of deaths per 100 000 population. in australia the figure is 1.5 and 16% are gun related

in america it is 5.5 and 80% are gun related.

Im not saying there isnt a problem over here, I just question the means of which people think it will be solved. People in Washington are under the strictest gun laws in America. Its also the murder capital of America.

garysher · 05-13-2008, 04:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grace

Im just saying we have a large amount of immigrants involved in gang activity, I bet at a higher rate than other countries.

Could it be because guns aren't so readily available and so abjectly glorified in those other countries??!?

Reforming gun laws will only take guns outta the hands of law abiding folk

Again, that isn't the case in other industrialised countries.

I agree it couldn't be an overnight change, the American public would need some education, as has happened with smoking, drinking & driving and eating healthily.

If America has the courage to reduce its tragically high murder rate then there's no doubt it will succeed.

Im not saying there isnt a problem over here, I just question the means of which people think it will be solved. People in Washington are under the strictest gun laws in America. Its also the murder capital of America.

Maybe because Washington DC is about a 30 minute drive from four other states where guns are freely available!!!

Rather a disingenuous example Grace

What it really boils down to is whether the US wants to become a more civilised society or continue to perpetuate its wild west cowboy image

Tigerwiccan · 05-14-2008, 01:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by garysher

Maybe because Washington DC is about a 30 minute drive from four other states where guns are freely available!!!

Rather a disingenuous example Grace

What it really boils down to is whether the US wants to become a more civilised society or continue to perpetuate its wild west cowboy image

More U.S. bashing by gary...

garysher · 05-14-2008, 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tigerwiccan

More U.S. bashing by gary...

You have always struggled to accept criticism

Tigerwiccan · 05-14-2008, 01:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by garysher

You have always struggled to accept criticism

Why should I have to accept criticism levied at a whole country? That's just crazy. It's like you don't even acknowledge that there are people here than are for gun control. Nope, you just say that the whole country has a "cowboy image". Ignorant!

garysher · 05-14-2008, 04:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tigerwiccan

Why should I have to accept criticism levied at a whole country?

Let's see now - because it's true?

That's just crazy. It's like you don't even acknowledge that there are people here than are for gun control. Nope, you just say that the whole country has a "cowboy image". Ignorant!

I'm afraid it's entirely factual.

Even you wiccans cannot insulate yourselves from the guilt and shame transmuted by hard facts.

Katczinsky · 05-14-2008, 08:11 PM

Sorry Tigerwiccan, but the data seems to be on gary's side. There may be some good individuals in this country but as a country we function terribly.

hot dragon · 05-15-2008, 01:14 AM

trouble is, it is so easy to bash the US, especially on the issue of firearms.

but it is unfair to say that the american gun culture is universal. there are americans who argue for tight gun legislation, just as there are aussies who would like more lax legislation.

legislation is not sufficient in itself to solve the problem, but it is a neccesary step.