Yes, precisely, some Jews had guns -
and those who did (in the Warsaw uprising for example) were afforded at least a sporting chance of putting up a fight and dying with some dignity.

A sporting chance? They were massacred! The Nazis burned the ghetto to the ground.

Honestly, a sporting chance would have been if the United States had bothered to bomb the rail lines to Auschwitz or something. There's nothing sporting about genocide. The distinction between being gassed to death and being shot in a futile battle seems pretty insignifigant to me.

Dylan, I didn't mean they had a sporting chance in terms of superior firepower or collective strength over the Nazis.
I meant
They had a chance at dying with dignity...

It is hard to believe you regard the difference as insignificant -
going down fighting and hopefully taking out a few Nazis in the process,
as opposed to
filing mutely through their system to be stripped of any personal identity, denuded, heads shaved, and murdered in rotating groups.

"Death with honor" is pretty worthless if you're just going to be gunned down like a dog anyway.

There is nothing dignified about what happened in the Warsaw Ghetto, or Sobibor, or anywhere else. Those were acts of desperation. Those people were already starving, they had already been stripped of their rights, and were already ignored as human beings.

Besides, why give the Nazis more fodder?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herschel_Grynszpan

The case you cited above was of a Jewish person going to the embassy and assassinating someone there.

NOT the same thing as putting up the best fight possible, for oneself and one's family, if Nazis came to round up everyone inside.

I also have to wonder what you mean when you mention giving the Nazis "more fodder".
As though good behavior would mitigate the circumstances of the Jews.
The Third Reich would have proceeded no differently with or without so-called fodder.
Read Mein Kampf and tell me if you don't agree.

Hon... You may not have noticed this, but I'm Jewish. I've been reading about this stuff since I was old enough to wrap my head around the concept of genocide.

I happen to think Grynzpan was totally justified. However, he also gave the Nazis another excuse for violence. I don't think 'good behavior' would fix anything. That's why I think fighting back is pointless. It's just another way to die, and another excuse to get killed.

It doesn't matter how you die. When you're dead, you're dead. The best anyone could try to do is survive, and for those who didn't, we mourn.

The fact of the matter is that fighting back just gave the Nazis an excuse to kill more people. One desperate Jew shoots a minor official because his family is going to die, and thousands are killed in a single night. Fighting against that was pointless.

Furthermore, the general populace didn't know what was going to happen. It's not like they had an itinerary or anything, that explained that they were going to be gassed like animals.

hear hear

Hev I knew you would make a good cheerleader for someone, the minute we met.


Dylan,
::It doesn't matter how you die. When you're dead, you're dead...::

Well, right there is the touchstone of our disagreement. It may have little to do with your being Jewish or not; it may just be about how we look at life.

Dylan :: The fact of the matter is that fighting back just gave the Nazis an excuse to kill more people. ::

Ehrm, they didn't seem to be looking for an *excuse*, Dylan. They were not elaborating on it to anyone, if you recall.

Dylan :: One desperate Jew shoots a minor official because his family is going to die, and thousands are killed in a single night. Fighting against that was pointless.::

No it would NOT have been 'pointless'. Not IMHO, anyway.

Dylan :: Furthermore, the general populace didn't know what was going to happen. It's not like they had an itinerary or anything, that explained that they were going to be gassed like animals. ::

Clearly they knew something awful was happening; otherwise, why were so many seeking ways to get out of the occupied countries, or hiding in nuns' convents, or in attics a la Anne Frank?

Maybe we should just agree to disagree about this; I am afraid of continuing to use the example of the Third Reich...
I fear it might feel too personal for you since possibly you have relatives that went through it.
Why don't we think of a different example for tomorrow.

Just one more comment before we leave the example of the Third Reich...

Look at what you wrote above, Dylan,
:: Honestly, a sporting chance would have been if the United States had bothered to bomb the rail lines to Auschwitz or something. ::

It is always the fault of the United States with some people, isn't it?
Nothing about whether Great Britain should have bombed the rail lines to Auschwitz, and of course none of the continental countries could be bothered to do anything about any of it.
No, the entire burden for everything that goes wrong must be placed on the USA by some people.