Defending the Truth

Some interesting points from a mirror discussion going on at Digg...

And from the monetary point of view... This got me thinking...

Interesting points to consider...

We will most likely never agree on what is fair.

I thought you lived in Pakistan. Denmark is a very small country geographically without 50 individual sovereign states. What may work there won't work here. You have a limited and knowledge of our health care system, I see.

Class warfare.....boy, I could have guessed that! Sure, soak the rich, they have enough for everyone.... It doesn't work. It's been proven. After a while, with no incentive, there will be no rich..... Many of those so called billionaires aren't even American citizens anymore and they live elsewhere for more favorable tax situations already. All that is left is the shell corporations that are "international" and their employees. There are 300,000,000 people here, and more pouring in illegally across borders all the time, and what you think would be fair would destroy the economy. I don't have any particular affection for the billionaires you think should be plundered and robbed of what they have earned, but I do respect the rights of people to keep their own money and property.

Experience demonstrates that with more people being covered, there is more utilization....should taxpayers be paying for boob jobs for women, and abortions, and while on the subject, what about liposuction for anyone who wants it? Should every person have access to reconstructive surgery to change their looks, get new nose jobs? AT SOMEONE ELSES EXPENSE??

We aren't total idiots here. When the income tax was supposedly passed, only 1% of the rich were supposed to be paying....guess who pays now? Once you pass a law, guess what, you are giving those lunatics in Congress precedent to raise the rates whenever they choose, and at times, tax rates here have exceeded 50%. Should every person who is unhappy or making bad choices have mental health coverage provided by someone who isn't? Guess what that causes.....lots of unhappy people....

Your notion that it's possible to soak the rich and no one else has already been considered and found wanting. These guys have been discussing these things for lots of years now. There you go.....doctors will be subject to huge fines or jail if they fill out a form wrong...or don't provide the level of care the government mandates....boob jobs for whoever, abortions on demand, liposuction for anyone who eats themselves out of a size 14, elective surgeries to anyone at all, at someone elses expense. NOT going to happen. What will happen instead is that govenment will decide what treatment you can have, and each and every year, more will be restricted, more will be denied, more will be decided by politicians than doctors, because financially your plan won't work. After cutting all sorts of procedures from the treatments available, they will raise tax rates and lower that down so only people making 100,000 a year will have to pay, and then people won't want to make 100,000 anymore...thus chipping away at the economy, and everyone earn less, have less, and in no time, everyone will be on the public dole. Already, 52% of the population here gets paid by government of one sort or another, either salaries or benefits. How long do you think the economy will last? Wheerever there are freebies, people go get them.... and if they are only free for people making less, people will make less. We've been that route already with welfare programs that nurtured a dependency culture in our inner cities. It was a disaster.By law, he MUST be accepted by any HMO. By law, they must accept all comers....it's always been that way. Even if they haven't been covered for a long time, and don't QUALIFY for regular insurance, they can go to HMO's and get coverage and treatment they need. Everyone has heard horror stories.See above.
Ask my brother whose wife is dying of cancer right now. Her benefits haven't ended, and won't. I guess you are guaranteed life and SAFETY and no problems where you live? You expect government to take responsibility for all this stuff? You EXPECT government to do a good JOB of it? Is everyone safe now we have a Homeland Security? How good is the FBI? How about Dept. of Education? Everyone learning like they should just because government takes on the task? Just what do they do anyway?

The illusion of safety for Americans went right out the window on 9/11. If anyone still feels safe, they have had their heads buried in the sand.

I know this is false, because that's what we did for decades....primarily provided health benefits to groups and individuals as well as life insurance. I personally have known hundreds, no, thousands of agents who served their clients well and honorably all that time. There are licensing requirements everywhere, and every different state has a Insurance Bureau where people can complain if they aren't treated fairly. There are professional associations who provide education and guidance to their members. There are a few bad apples, but they get rooted out by the system we already have in place, and tossed from the associations.

It's tragic that so few in the world have any idea of what a great job is being done by insurance professionals. You read about and hear the complaints, the bad things without ever noticing the billions and billions of dollars paid out in claims, in both health and life insurance. You don't notice that the companies exist, and their agents know this, TO PAY CLAIMS and they do just that.

You are in error if you think GOVERNMENT which does nothing well, would or could do a better job.

Oh, and we are not rich. We SERVE our clients, and they refer others to us, and because we compete by offering the services of many different companies and policies.

That ideal of communism cannot exist because of the greed, however small, of human beings...it's built into human nature, and no law will ever erase it or remove it. You would be stunned by the insurance FRAUD perpetrated on companies all the time....would this go away if government took over? NO..it would be EASIER. There is already huge fraud against government benefits in SSI entitlements, FEMA helping out folks in disasters, etc.

We don't want to encourage people to work less, claim more.... Ultimately, that is what happens. History demonstrates this clearly.

Social security demonstrates this clearly.

Protecting life, liberty, and the control of a persons own property ....these are the only valid jobs of govenment.

You have a right to life, but not the the labor or property of others....

Try and wrap your mind around this. How much oil could we buy for $1 Trillion?

What does this have to do with oil?

DUH - How can I put this very, very simply. Predictions are we will spend $1 Trillion on the Iraq War before it is finally wrapped up. The Iraq War did not have to be fought. DUH - I just assumed a practical question would be how much oil could we buy for $1 Trillion? Just a dumb mistake on my part.

It was a dumb question on your part.

I agree.....not only with Akuma but with Gary too

You are a very good immature Frog.

The best.

sounds like a distinct possibility but why not give it a try
Well i'm half danish and half Pakistani. I have lived both places, but i currently reside in Pakistan. I have had the opportunity to closely look at the systems of one highly developed and one underdeveloped nation.

And yeah i agree with you that trying to implement a federal helthcare system is going to be a gargantuan task int he US. But there are two things here. Firstly when speaking of the principle of universal healthcare there is no particualr requirement that it be federal. In the sense that such systems can just as easily be implemented at the state or county level. Legislation surrounding what items should be covered should be federal law, but how to provide that medical coverage should be the job of the individual states.

Well as per the latest polls, the US of A still has 371 billionaires plus countless multi millionaires. SO no higher taxes do NOT cause the feared mass exodus. Sweden has even higher taxes than Denmark as they have somehow managed to keep a hold of the world's third richest man. How about those multi billionaires with public profiles?? let's take Trump. Will he EVER renounce his american citizenship?? DO you think his business would flourish int he US if he did? Not a chance..

Look i understand that a man should be entitled to keep what he earns.. But then he shouldn't pay ANY taxes at all. I mean taxes are justified for the running of the country, for the presidential motorcades, for the various wars fought on regular intervals, for monetary and military aid to crooked regimes to buy their support, and a variety of other pursuits... why pay taxes at all. Well because the above are considered "justified expenses". I just find it shocking that healthcare for all citizens doesn't make that list.

Abolutely NOT. i think a very clear line can be drawn between elective and vital surgery and medical treatment. In Denmark women pay for their boob jobs or other elective surgery.. but when it comes to a matter of their health and wellbeing, they get treatment simply by virtue of being a tax-paying citizen.

there is anotehr dynamic that tends to be forgotten. When a trillion dollars is spent of a crazy war, Average Joe can't actually see any benefit of paying taxes because they get spent on something for which the only return is governmental rhetoric. It is actions like that that make them wary of paying taxes in the first place.

A fully funded healthcare system can be felt right down to the roots. And i can assure you that people will be FAR MORE WILLING to pay taxes when and if they see a universal helathcare system. Because they will ACTUALLY be able see and feel where that money is spent.

In denmark there is plenty of bitching about the tax burden.. but when it comes to a choice they will always choose paying taxes, as long as their facilities are not taken away from them. They pay willingly for the safety net provided them. The fact is that the bitching is not so much about how many taxes are levied, but about how effectively that money ought to be spent.
Well again mental health can be considered phase two of the universal coverage plan. How about jsut starting with every physical ailment that causes physical harm or death. At least this way you are healing a person who is DEFINATELY sick.
hahahaha.. yeah and i bet it was "found wanting" by the same rich people who happen to make up the majority of your political class. Anyhow i was not speaking of ruining the rich. I was speaking of NO TAX CUTS, and a reasonable increase in taxes. Just a 5 % increase int he taxes levied on the top 5 % earners int he US will NOT ruin them. It will ONLY affect their GREED. They will keep their mansions,jets and bentleys.
Well that is basically a perversion of the system i had in mind. The system i have in mind is one constructed to save lives.. NOT one to make people look prettier. Likewise doctors have ALWAYS been subject to review and they SHOULD be arrested if they do not provide the level of care mandated by the government, so there is no change in that. And lastly, the days of the handwritten form are OVER. Every single patient in denmark has his/her chart stored in a central medical database. The software exists to run an entire medical system. Billing and archiving is done via that terminal that exists in every doctor's PC, so no.. they will NOT get arrested for that.. TO be honest this is just grasping at straws, because you imply that you cannot have universal healthcare without these problems.. Well i'm talling you that YOU CAN.
Well financially the plan CAN work and it WILL work because there are precedents that it does. Also in a DEMOCRACY the people cannot allow that money be sanctioned for WAR, while the politicians cut down on their chances of survival. If your democratic institutions are so weak that people can be threatened/scared into funding an unjust war and NOT healthcare, then your democracy is in serious need of review.
That is another one of those doomsday scenarios. Many nations in this world have those very facilities that you speak of ( and have had them for generations) without the whole society deciding to live on welfare. Living on welfare is not the natural state of mankind and you seel our species VERY short if you are willing to assume that man is so lazy.

It is completely crazy to assume that provision of healthcare is enough for people to give up their daily jobs so they can go to the doctor every single day. Free healthcare and education have NOT reduced denmark's productivity. The country churns out new business, new innovations, new millionaires on a daily basis, inspite of having these facilities. Let me assure you as a citizen of a socialist state, that the provision of healthcare and education OR the high tax burden has NEVER motivated me to reduce my income. It is just not worth it. I will not forsake my ability to buy a car, simply because i may have to pay more taxes. In fact i work HARDER because a car is more expensive for me with the added taxes. BUt i work , i earn and i buy... just as every one of my contemporaries do.
Again would you prefer to make 100$ less in order to be eligible for benfits worth 100$?? it jsut doesn't make sense. No socialist state has imploded because of the reason you give so i would really consider them very little other than cold-war era propoganda.

Sure people go for things that are free. I agree with you on that. But this problem that you speak of is only faced when the earning potential from handouts is MORE than what you could earn from actually working. In denmark you can easily survive on government handouts... But you do MUCH better even if you work a minimum wage job. As long as the handouts exist as a means of SURVIVAL and work exists as a meas of SUCCESS, some will choose to jsut sruvive, but the VAST MAJORITY will always choose the path that holds the potential for success.

Perhaps other aspects of the US economy should be reviewed. I mean if it is possible to hold 2 jobs and still have trouble feeding your children, then obviously the US is NOT the place to be if you are a regular worker. Let's say legistlation was passed that guaranteed a higher minimum wage, then the alternative to government handouts will ALWAYS be a more preferable earning potential as a worker. As the stiaution stands int he US, i know that isn't always possible.
See above.. the dependency culture is only fostered when the alternative is working for a measly sum that doesn't even cover the basic needs of your family. The problem isn't that people go on welfare. THe problem is that welfare actually happens to be the better alternative.

See this is one aspect of US culture i just don't get. You practically diefy your presidents, you obsess about the american dream and the american identity, you will send your young men out on a crazy war on behest of the government. Yet you do not trust them to be able to run the very simplest and most basic of welfare institutions. How can you trust a government to conduct a WAR, yet you cannot trust them to look after your health. That's a paradox that goes beyond my understanding.
Couldn't agree with you more.