Originally Posted by hkbajwa

I'm very glad you see that. As far as i'm concerned, if all nations inculcated some of the scandinavian ethos in their governance, we would not see as much misery in this world. I'm very lucky to be a citizen of Denmark. I only wish others could enjoy the privileges i do.

It sounds like a nice system. But I'm glad of a couple things, I don't want to "live" there and I like the choices what we have here in the U.S. Sure we'll help you get on your feet, but lifetime welfare for otherwise healthy people is over. And even after more consideration, I still disagree with "free" medical care for everyone paid through taxes. Just not something I'd like to see happen.

Yeah but two things here. Firstly, opposition to universal healthcare sounds like punishment for being poor and uninsured. I say this because it seems that all those who truly do need and deserve assistance are being sacrificed to prevent the occasional exploiter from exploiting heatlhcare facilities ( something which will neither make him rich, it won't put food on his table and it won't give him a roof over his head ) even though lives would be saved, and money would be spent on HEALTHCARE rather than insurance company profits and salaries.

Your "punishment for being poor" is my "punishment for being successful. As far as insurance company profits and salaries, well it also pays a lot out in litigation too. When you have juries awarding millions like it's water, somebody has to pay it back. Assistance for the sick and needy is one thing, just giving away my tax money to people that simply didn't prepare for life, well that's a whole different deal.

Secondly, you don't mind taking their money to fund the military, or to build roads or to fund any number of government initiatives and projects, yet balk when it comes to taking ther money to keep people healthy. Why is it that it's ok to take money for SOME things, but wrong to take their money for healthcare. Paying taxes is part of being a responsible citizen. It is not a punishment, it is a NECESSITY. To be responsible for the health and wellbeing of your fellow citizen is not a punishment, it is human decency.

Money for bridges an infrastructure is one thing. A road can be used by anyone and for a long time and earns it's keep. The military protects everyone and earns it's keep. The system you are suggesting takes money from people who are supporting a sytem and gives it to many people that aren't, eve though they could/should. But as I said before, I also support a flat tax system. I don't think our taxes should be graduated, I think it punishes people for being successful. But again, that's just me.

You know other options are available. If the US slashes its military spending ( and doesn't invade any other country for a few decades ) it could spend tax dollars where they actually give BENEFIT. Even if the US redirects 50% of the military budget to healthcare, you will still have BY FAR the best equipped and powerful military force on the planet. The money is there you know.. there just seems to be some unseen force that prevents you from spending it on healthcare ( insurance lobbyists perhaps)

I don't recommend slashing the military budget. But I also would like for us to NOT to play world police too. If a country needs invading, why don't we send 1000 troops like everyone else instead of 50,000 or more. That is bullshit too.

I agree. When you pay 50% in taxes it REALLY burns when you see somebody exploiting the system, trust me. However the healthcare system is not like public welfare. It doesn't give people money, it doesn't give them housing and it doesn't give them money for drugs and booze. It simply allows people to not have to think about paying medical bills. There are no free handouts involved. I mean how do you exploit a system like that? Get yourself a lobotomy for free? how about an appendectomy? or maybe a free colonic... or maybe 7 flu shots. It can not be exploited by anybody ( at least not if your doctors are qualified - i mean they should be able to see if a person is sick and needs treatment no?) In fact is it easier to exploit the insurance industry.. i mean how many fake whiplash payouts do you think the companies make a year?

Whiplash payouts will still happen because that's a different type of insurance. And yes that is another form of fraud. Since I already pay insurance on my house and car, I don't see why paying health insurance is in such contention. It's just another cost of living.

Let's say that right now I pay $200 a month for health insurance but I only pay about 25% in taxes. If my taxes go up 15% to fund healthcare, I'm losing money on this deal. Big time. Still sounds like I'm getting punished to fund people that didn't plan for life. Should be have plans in place to help people who come into misfortune until they can get back on their feet? Sure. But make it temporary and based on them actually trying to get back on their feet.

The governmen'ts purpose is to protect and SERVE. How do they serve them? they do so by ensuring equal rights, equal opportunities, equal life chances, good public infrastructure, and equal access to health and education - the last two being INTEGRAL to ensuring the first 3.

I disagree with the healthcare part of that actually. It's too personal and is too much like welfare. The protect and serve part of government is for everyone. Health care is individual just like welfare. Roads, schools and other infrastructure isn't as individual. I can't build a road or a school, but I can provide for my own healthcare.

This is a misunderstanding that people often have. Denmark is a welfare state and the government does look after you VERY WELL. This includes unemployment benefits, housing and or other services. But by the logic presentedby those who fear the "exploiters" most danes should be at home sitting on their asses. Yet a higher proportion of them are actually in employment and paying taxes. Now can you explain that if it is so true that welfare means laziness and lack of incentive.. fact is that it DOESN'T mean that.

I still can't see comparing our cultures. Like I said, we have cities with more people than your entire country. And I'm sure there are other differences that I haven't even considered. But this subject really doesn't warrant that much research.

A danish citizen can make 5000 Kroner a month (app.1000 USD) taking welfare.. but he can make 3 times that amount minimum if he works EVEN IF HE PAYS 50% taxes. THe welfare is there and it protects the poorest, BUT it does not take away the incentive to work hard and make money.

Originally Posted by hkbajwa

So you can only hope to be healthy if you/re successful. You are of course aware that a person can only do their best. Success is not an inevitable result of hard work. So how about those who work hard but never make much money?

I feel for them. But this is the land of opportunity. We have free education until 12th grade and further with scholarship and other opportunities. Many states have lottery funded higher education. Depends of what you consider "much money" and what lifestyle you want to lead.

Access to healthcare should not be contingent upon how well you do financially. It is an inalienable right of all humans. I also consider it a DUTY of any decent human being to contribute to the health and education of his fellow citizens.

I disagree. I'll contribute to the education of children, but the health of an adult who made poor choices is not my concern.

Think about it thought.. an inner city ghetto sweller just does NOT HAVE THE SAME CHANCE OF SUCCESS as somebody born in a suburban affluent neighborhood. This has nothing to do with their desire or their dedication or their hard work.

As a person who grew up in the inner city of Atlanta, I disagree. I had plenty of opportunity. And I took advantage of most of them. At 6'6' I could have probably played basketball and got a scholarship, but I chose the military. Thank goodness.

Why should anybody's access to healthcare be dependent on how much money they make when everybody has different life chances.