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Health Care Debate and defend your thoughts on the current health care system. Compare and contrast the current health care system of the US to other countries.

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Old 11-13-2007, 06:14 PM   #61 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by fxashun View Post
Even so that's different from paying for an illness that wasn't a personal choice - unlike a car.

Actually paying for health insurance IS a personal choice.

Not after you tell the insurance company that you have cancer. That's when they kick you into the gutter.

Even people with much lesser illnesses are unable to afford health insurance for themselves and their families. If you hadn't been in the military could you afford your own health insurance?

But my point was that getting a car is a choice but getting cancer isn't.
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Old 11-13-2007, 06:40 PM   #62 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by garysher View Post

Not after you tell the insurance company that you have cancer. That's when they kick you into the gutter.

You can't get life insurance after you are dead. And there is no universal death benefit for family members.
You can't get homeowners insurance after the tornado. So you are still out on your ass.
Can't get flood insurance after your house floats away.
Same applies for getting insurance after diagnosis with cancer.


Even people with much lesser illnesses are unable to afford health insurance for themselves and their families. If you hadn't been in the military could you afford your own health insurance?

Since I'd still probably be dependent on my parents and living at home. I'd be under my mom's plan. Many colleges actually have a group insurance plan that is covered by fees. Dialysis is covered 80% by Medicare, but if I were to get a transplant, the medication to keep from rejecting isn't covered after 3 years. They expect you to be able to work by then.

But to answer your question, would I be able to afford my insurance on my own? No. But then again, I wouldn't be able to afford to "live" if I weren't in the Marines when I got sick. But that was why I joined the Marine Corps in the first place. I wasn't doing anything productive with my life yet and the recruiter offered a awesome enlistment bonus, college funds, choice of duty station, and a decent trade.

Insurance would be the least of my worries if I had to live on SSI.

But my point was that getting a car is a choice but getting cancer isn't.
Getting cancer isn't a choice, you are correct. But we have all kinds of insurance. You have health insurance, short/long term disability to protect income, long term care in case you need it....An adult is expected to know this. Paying insurance is as important as taxes and a loaf of bread.
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Old 11-13-2007, 07:43 PM   #63 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fxashun View Post
Getting cancer isn't a choice, you are correct. But we have all kinds of insurance. You have health insurance, short/long term disability to protect income, long term care in case you need it....An adult is expected to know this. Paying insurance is as important as taxes and a loaf of bread.

You're still missing the point - how do you get insurance when you have cancer or some other catastrophic illness ?? The ones that health insurance companies reject?

And how do low income families afford the premiums?
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Old 11-13-2007, 08:00 PM   #64 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by garysher View Post

You're still missing the point - how do you get insurance when you have cancer or some other catastrophic illness ?? The ones that health insurance companies reject?

And how do low income families afford the premiums?
They don't. Low income families can't afford food, decent housing, heat, air conditioning, or electricity either. Why don't we just give them everything?

You are missing "MY" point as well. There are many things poor people can't afford. Is it the tax payer's responsibility to pay for something on that individual a level? General health insurance would be yet another burden on the people that currently pay a majority of the taxes. And it ain't the poor people. Universal health care as you are describing would be yet another program that helps people who haven't helped themselves.

Here's some great information on the subject.
ACS :: Medical Insurance and Financial Assistance for the Cancer Patient
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Last edited by fxashun; 11-13-2007 at 08:13 PM.
Old 11-14-2007, 02:28 AM   #65 (permalink)
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Well fxashun... it seems that you are so embittered by the struggles you have faced yourself, that you cannot abide the thought that others should get what you have without living through the same struggles. I may be wrong but that is how it comes across.

It is my firm belief that ensuring the health and wellbeing of one's fellow citizens is an undeniable duty ( but that's just me ).

Has it occurred to you that free healthcare will free you of your health insurance payments? Essentially what you will be paying in isurance, you will be paying in taxes instead and the only difference will be that nobody gets left behind. I don't get why you wouldn't want that.

I think it's a crying shame that the need/desire to deny the alleged throngs of ne'er-do-wells free medical assistance is given a higher priority that providing care for those who actually need it. You sacrifice the lives of those who do not deserve to be left behind, for the sake of denying a few lazy louts the same.

Let me ask you one thing..... Would you rather pay extra to keep both deserving and undeserving people alive OR woudl you rather that money went to an industry that essentially makes a profit every time they don't have to pay for somebody's healthcare ( causing them to actively try and weasel out of it ). Mind you, it's not gonna get any more expensive for you.. instead of the insurance premiums you will merely be paying a tax... the only difference is that in the former case, the extra money you pay never gets utilized for anything but lining the pockets of a corporation, whereas in the latter EVERYBODY winds up having the same life chances.

Any talk of "programs" for the poor and elderly is irrelevant.. if those "programs" were actually helping a sufficient number of people, then there wouldn't be such perceived need to provide universal healthcare.. it is because so many people fall through the cracks that this discussion even exists.

YOu worry about how the provision of universal healthcare is gonna cost you.. well like i said, it's NOT gonna cost you.. you'll merely be paying your money to an institution whose PRIME GOAL is the HEALTH AND WELLBEING of the population... instead of MAKING A PROFIT. YOu cut out the completely superfluous and ultimately equally expensive corporation and instead pay your money to an institution that will not deny you treatment because you are "not covered".

Think about it.. in such a situation you are going to be 100% covered without the limitations of having to contract a "covered" ailment.

I CAN NOT for the life of me understand why you are willing to keep paying insurance premiums ( in spite of the fact that your health and wellbeing is only a SECONDARY CONCERN to the company ) but you will not cancel that and pay an equal amount in taxes for a system that can NEVER DENY YOU and whose sole purpose of existence isn't their stock price or bottom line but rather YOUR HEALTH.
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Old 11-14-2007, 07:30 AM   #66 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hkbajwa View Post
Well fxashun... it seems that you are so embittered by the struggles you have faced yourself, that you cannot abide the thought that others should get what you have without living through the same struggles. I may be wrong but that is how it comes across.

It is my firm belief that ensuring the health and wellbeing of one's fellow citizens is an undeniable duty ( but that's just me ).

Has it occurred to you that free healthcare will free you of your health insurance payments? Essentially what you will be paying in isurance, you will be paying in taxes instead and the only difference will be that nobody gets left behind. I don't get why you wouldn't want that.

I think it's a crying shame that the need/desire to deny the alleged throngs of ne'er-do-wells free medical assistance is given a higher priority that providing care for those who actually need it. You sacrifice the lives of those who do not deserve to be left behind, for the sake of denying a few lazy louts the same.

Let me ask you one thing..... Would you rather pay extra to keep both deserving and undeserving people alive OR woudl you rather that money went to an industry that essentially makes a profit every time they don't have to pay for somebody's healthcare ( causing them to actively try and weasel out of it ). Mind you, it's not gonna get any more expensive for you.. instead of the insurance premiums you will merely be paying a tax... the only difference is that in the former case, the extra money you pay never gets utilized for anything but lining the pockets of a corporation, whereas in the latter EVERYBODY winds up having the same life chances.

Any talk of "programs" for the poor and elderly is irrelevant.. if those "programs" were actually helping a sufficient number of people, then there wouldn't be such perceived need to provide universal healthcare.. it is because so many people fall through the cracks that this discussion even exists.

YOu worry about how the provision of universal healthcare is gonna cost you.. well like i said, it's NOT gonna cost you.. you'll merely be paying your money to an institution whose PRIME GOAL is the HEALTH AND WELLBEING of the population... instead of MAKING A PROFIT. YOu cut out the completely superfluous and ultimately equally expensive corporation and instead pay your money to an institution that will not deny you treatment because you are "not covered".

Think about it.. in such a situation you are going to be 100% covered without the limitations of having to contract a "covered" ailment.

I CAN NOT for the life of me understand why you are willing to keep paying insurance premiums ( in spite of the fact that your health and wellbeing is only a SECONDARY CONCERN to the company ) but you will not cancel that and pay an equal amount in taxes for a system that can NEVER DENY YOU and whose sole purpose of existence isn't their stock price or bottom line but rather YOUR HEALTH.
Where do you get bitterness? I just think people should earn what they get. I signed on the dotted line that I would give my life for this country in exchange, I get the benefits afforded any other member of the armed forces if they get ill. I grew up in poverty and I know of several people who managed to totally screw their lives and didn't. They aren't "my" responsibility. We have programs available for those people who legitimately "need" help.
An insurance company can NEVER DENY YOU under their contractual obligation. But in THIS case, the contract with the lady was voided when she knowingly or unknowingly gave erroneous information.
If you want to change my mind, this case ain't the one that's gonna do it.
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Old 11-14-2007, 08:20 AM   #67 (permalink)
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And what you don't get is people shouldn't have to "earn" healthcare. Healthcare should be a fundamental right.

Like you said about schools, that education benefits society, a healthy population also benefits society.

I just don't get how you see healthcare as something someone has to earn.
Old 11-14-2007, 08:23 AM   #68 (permalink)
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A person can't earn a basic education since they are minors. That's why college isn't free but everything up to it is.
After you are an adult, it is up to you to determine your destiny.

And even that "free" education is outperformed by "pay" education and diligent homeschooling.
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Last edited by fxashun; 11-14-2007 at 08:25 AM.
Old 11-14-2007, 09:49 AM   #69 (permalink)
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Nobody cares about the sick poor who can't afford health insurance. Sure, there are a few that pretend they care (such as politicians), and only in the interests of appearing noble. In reality people are only concerned about themselves and their immediate families. After all, it's not your fault there are poor, sick, destitute people.
Old 11-14-2007, 10:00 AM   #70 (permalink)
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Well, that makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside. But I don't actually believe that there aren't any people out there helping people anymore. Hopefully if people are being a bit more greedy and selfish today, it will be a passing phase. The problem is, usually the only way things change is when there isn't a choice. Bad things tend to bring people together, and if there is a swing to the greedy side, there will be an inevitable swing in the other direction.
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