fxashun

I'm comparing my wife's gross with what she brings home including her insurance and investment deductions. She's at about 30% total taxation.

Again, I'm all for a plan for taking care of people's basic need based on a sales tax plan or something. But major healthcare benefits are hella expensive and I don't think my neighbor on the right of me is responsible for the healthcare of my neighbor to the left.

Tort reform and a bit of governmental oversight with a few common sense rules would do wonders for the system.

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garysher

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hot dragon

wow, lots of interest in this thread.

i am aware of the american health care system and its flaws (and its few advantages) l am also aware of the NHS and other health care systems around the world. americas arrangement is universally condemned as inefficient, delivering poor care, unfair, unethical and exhorbitantly expensive. it is used as an example of what NOT to do.

of course everyone should pay for health care, and everyone does. but people pay different ammounts according to their capacity and use health services in different ammounts. any kind of health insurance, public or private, is asking other people to pay for some of your health care when you use it, and accepting that you pay for some of their care if they use it. dialysis for example is very expensive, the only way an insurer can pay for it is because they have other people with cover that are not using any health insurance.

comparing tax rates is way too simplistic. No australians pay 40% tax. our taxation system is stupidly complicated, with numerous different income brackets and rebates and exemptions and deductions. when you consider them all, income tax is about 30% max.

but we get free education up to year 12 and heavily subsidised tertiary education, and free health care for all citizens, and excellent policing and well maintained roads and infrastructure and sensible welfare for those in need and support for new industry and business and more.

these things are all provided by government. why pick on health care as the thing that people need to provide themselves? why not demand every parent pay the full cost of their kids schooling, or everyone pay for raod maintenance per kilometre they drive, or everyone pay individually for police attendance? we are a society as well as individuals, and we all benefit from things provided universally. it makes no sense to pick on health care.

garysher

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fxashun

Most people don't. I doubt we have to worry about that any time soon.

If you want to go there, they are responsible for my mortgage, utilities and car note too. It's part of the benefit package all members of the armed forces who get a disability retirement are afforded.
And they WILL pay for my son's education. I didn't make up the rules, but they are hella comprehensive.

Quote:

True. But eventually universal single payer health care will be the only solution.

"Only solution" I disagree with, but it will happen more than likely.

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fxashun

Health care is an individual issue. Roads, schools, building are shared by the community. Huge difference.

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hot dragon

garysher:

I find myself in the unusual position of agreeing with your post and even applauding it!

on issues unrelated to sex, we seem to agree often.

What's the deal with tertiary education in Australia, how much does it cost? Is it means-tested?

tertiary education entry is merit based (essentially decided by school leaving exams or university entry exams, depending on the university, state and course). university is part funded by a loan scheme called HECS. this leads to a graduate leaving uni with a debt of many thousands of dollars (varying from about $10 000 to $80 000 depending on the course) but this is only a fraction of the total cost, most of which is paid by the state. it is not means tested and there are no up front fees.

Why do you think Americans don't care about each other as much as Australians and Europeans?

it is not that they don't care, but they disagree on how to implement care. maybe it is just because they have never had a universal health care system. if they had, they would be fighting to defend it like everyone else.

i suspect there is also a mcarthyish fear that it will be a slippery slope into communism. like "if the government takes over my health care, will they take over my phone service next, and then the media, where will it end?".

also, my understanding is there is widespread (although not universal) criticism of the current health system among the population, but no political will to address the issue. the major parties are strongly funded by HMOs, so the HMOs can essentially buy political inaction.

hot dragon

do you think that;

hospitals are NOT shared by the community?

medical issues like infectious diseases and mental illness never affect anyone else?

people without children share the service offered by the local school?

people without cars share the road?

why limit individual responsibility to health care? ask the parents to pay for their kids school, why should you pay for it? ask the neighbor to pay for the police attendance when he is broken into, why should you pay? and if you do not drive a car, why should you help support the roads?

everyone in society benefits from having everyone else literate and educated. everyone benefits from having roads in good condition. everyone benefits from policing and law enforcement. and you agree (i think) the community needs to support these services. health care fits in with these services. you benefit from your neighbor being healthy, and your friends and family benefit from your dialysis. sure it affects you individually, but it affects others too.

fxashun

There are public hospitals.

Infectious disease risks are covered by the government. If there is a risk, it is taken care of. If you break your leg, you better have insurance.

Yes. An educated populous benefits the community as a whole. Someone has to keep the infrastructure operating. It benefits the government to provide education.

They sure do. If they have a house, a phone, clothes, food, etc..all of it got to them via road at one time or another.

You pay for education for reasons given earlier, you pay for police protection because its presence makes the entire community safer, and you support the roads for reasons given earlier.

My dialysis only effects me and those who know me. The road in front of my subdivision supports everyone in my subdivision, all those who buy goods on the trucks, and all those in the surrounding community that are just passing through. I'm sorry, education, roads, and police don't compare to individual healthcare.

How do I benefit from my neighbor being healthy? If they moved, I'd just get a new neighbor. Can't get a new road.

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hot dragon

fxashun;

My dialysis only effects me and those who know me. The road in front of my subdivision supports everyone in my subdivision, all those who buy goods on the trucks, and all those in the surrounding community that are just passing through. I'm sorry, education, roads, and police don't compare to individual healthcare.

How do I benefit from my neighbor being healthy? If they moved, I'd just get a new neighbor. Can't get a new road.


looks like i was wrong, garysher. i guess americans just don't care about each other as much.

of course, there are many that do. some of them post here. in fact, there is a majority that do. hopefully their voice can become loud enough that they can demand some changes.

and if universal health cover is brought in, those that opposed it will begin to wonder why they did.