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Health Care Debate and defend your thoughts on the current health care system. Compare and contrast the current health care system of the US to other countries.

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Old 08-07-2008, 11:05 PM   #31 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Wow View Post
I do not see a scandal, more like dead bodies and finger pointing:
Finger pointing in a natural disaster. France was hit the most severely by the heat wave, and coupled with the fact that most people were on vacation created a perfect storm. Whether or not the health system is to blame is -as the article you cut and pasted from pointed out- a matter of controversy.

Still, nonetheless, as you point out, Mattei lost his position. The American people have absolutely no check on the corporate powers that run our health system. And considering this was in 2003, and with a not-for-profit system, they were able reform their system to become better responders to future heat waves. The American industry does not change at all unless it concerns profitability. We have our own closet full of skeletons, and unlike the French, we have not learned or adapted as a result (see Katrina).

Considering France has the best health system in all areas (including response) in the world according to the World Health Organization's analysis, I could only imagine the impact such a disaster would have if it happened in the United States.

This was a natural disaster (the worst heat wave in recorded European history) that killed 14,802 (mostly elderly) in France. And while the complacency of a faulty health system is highly dubious at best, this number doesn't even reach the annual deaths undeniably caused directly by the systemic problems of the US health industry (as opposed to a natural disaster).

Hardly an example of people 'falling dead due to long lines'.
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Old 08-08-2008, 11:30 AM   #32 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Katczinsky View Post
Finger pointing in a natural disaster. France was hit the most severely by the heat wave, and coupled with the fact that most people were on vacation created a perfect storm. Whether or not the health system is to blame is -as the article you cut and pasted from pointed out- a matter of controversy.

Still, nonetheless, as you point out, Mattei lost his position. The American people have absolutely no check on the corporate powers that run our health system. And considering this was in 2003, and with a not-for-profit system, they were able reform their system to become better responders to future heat waves. The American industry does not change at all unless it concerns profitability. We have our own closet full of skeletons, and unlike the French, we have not learned or adapted as a result (see Katrina).

Considering France has the best health system in all areas (including response) in the world according to the World Health Organization's analysis, I could only imagine the impact such a disaster would have if it happened in the United States.

This was a natural disaster (the worst heat wave in recorded European history) that killed 14,802 (mostly elderly) in France. And while the complacency of a faulty health system is highly dubious at best, this number doesn't even reach the annual deaths undeniably caused directly by the systemic problems of the US health industry (as opposed to a natural disaster).

Hardly an example of people 'falling dead due to long lines'.
Chirac blamed the French citizens for leaving their elderly relatives behind. LOL All of these people died because Doctors were on a vacation? I have never heard of such incompetence and neglect.
If this happened in the US, hospitals, doctors and Insurance companies would be sued for Billions. There would be people facing a criminal Grand Jury.

Each state in the US regulates health Insurance/healthcare.
State Legislators approve the Insurance contracts and audits Insurance companies, healthcare facilities etc...The Feds have some input.

If you have ANY healthcare complaints, you should take them up with your state representatives!
Old 08-08-2008, 03:44 PM   #33 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wow View Post
Chirac blamed the French citizens for leaving their elderly relatives behind. LOL All of these people died because Doctors were on a vacation? I have never heard of such incompetence and neglect.
If this happened in the US, hospitals, doctors and Insurance companies would be sued for Billions. There would be people facing a criminal Grand Jury.

Each state in the US regulates health Insurance/healthcare.
State Legislators approve the Insurance contracts and audits Insurance companies, healthcare facilities etc...The Feds have some input.

If you have ANY healthcare complaints, you should take them up with your state representatives!
The French heat wave was a natural disaster.

How many Americans died because of Katrina? Did the government ever publish that figure?

And how man Americans die every year because they can't afford health care? Or because their insurance company finds some way to wriggle out of paying?
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Old 08-08-2008, 04:34 PM   #34 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by garysher View Post
Even if what you say is true, 47-9.4 leaves 37.6 million uninsured, or over 10% or Americans.
47 million uninsured

20% (9.4 million) - currently eligible for existing programs
10% (4.7 million) - college students who should be inexpensive to insure
20% (9.4 million) - non-US citizens who are in the country legally (I don't believe Americans should have to subsidize their health care. I don't have data on the number of illegal immigrants)
20% (9.4 million) - household income over $75,000 (and even though my family falls into this bracket, I agree that there should be a coverage mandate for those of us who can afford it)

That's about 32.9 million who shouldn't be "uninsured" because they can/should be covered by already existing programs.

'We all pay for the uninsured' - May. 1, 2008

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Originally Posted by garysher View Post
And that doesn't include the UNDER insured and the people who the insurance company ceases coverage when they get ill.
If you choose to underinsure yourself, then that's a risk you choose to take. States have mandatory minimums for car insurance to ensure that you have at least some coverage. Whether or not you choose to purchase additional insurance is up to you.

Recission is another issue that's tied into things like cost control and fraud, which needs to be addressed as well.

There are a lot - A LOT - of problems with the way insurance is handled today. But it's not "the fault of the insurance companies" that healthcare spending is so out of control in this country.

There is more than enough blame to go around - the insurers, the pharmaceuticals, the uninsured, the individual who chooses to ignore a problem when it's small and inexpensive, the government.

Bitching and moaning and finger-pointing doesn't solve anything. Stepping up and taking responsibility for ourselves and our choices does... or at least it makes a start.

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Old 08-08-2008, 04:40 PM   #35 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tirya View Post
47 million uninsured

20% (9.4 million) - currently eligible for existing programs

WHICH ONES? AND WHY WOULD PEOPLE NOT ENROLL IF THEY ARE ELGIBLE ?

10% (4.7 million) - college students who should be inexpensive to insure
???Having health insurance, either the college's or your own, is mandatory for registration at all the colleges I've dealt with

20% (9.4 million) - non-US citizens who are in the country legally (I don't believe Americans should have to subsidize their health care. I don't have data on the number of illegal immigrants)
Why not? These people are law-abiding taxpayers just like you!

Currently they are subsidising YOUR insurance - maybe that's why they can't afford their own!




20% (9.4 million) - household income over $75,000 (and even though my family falls into this bracket, I agree that there should be a coverage mandate for those of us who can afford it)

Agreed

That's about 32.9 million who shouldn't be "uninsured" because they can/should be covered by already existing programs.

'We all pay for the uninsured' - May. 1, 2008

I think your stats are wide open to accusations of being fallacious
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Old 08-08-2008, 04:42 PM   #36 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by garysher View Post
I think your stats are wide open to accusations of being fallacious
That's why I included the source, Einstein. Feel free to verify them yourself.

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Old 08-08-2008, 04:49 PM   #37 (permalink)
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Quote:
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If you choose to underinsure yourself, then that's a risk you choose to take. States have mandatory minimums for car insurance to ensure that you have at least some coverage. Whether or not you choose to purchase additional insurance is up to you.
.
That's like saying if you choose not to live in a Beverly Hills mansion and not drive a Ferrari it's your choice!

Most people get health insurance through their employers, which imposes a huge overhead on that business.

It also limits employees to whatever the employer determines will suffice. And if times are hard the company will well reduce coverage or switch to a cheaper insurer.

Many self-employed people are under insured because they simply cannot afford $1500-$3000 a month on insurance premiums, especially if a family member has a health problem.

Or a 'pre-existing condition' as insurers prefer to call it.

Statutory minimums on health insurance are exactly that - minimums.

They may be mandatory but they leave drivers under-insured in most cases, especially for coverage of their own vehicle.

You may be willing to risk writing off a $500 car but not your son's asthma, so I don't see that your analogy holds water




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Old 08-08-2008, 04:50 PM   #38 (permalink)
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Quote:
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That's why I included the source, Einstein. Feel free to verify them yourself.

Just confirming that you have no means of verifying these stats and can offer no reasonable defence.
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Old 08-08-2008, 04:57 PM   #39 (permalink)
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Just confirming that you have no means of verifying these stats and can offer no reasonable defence.
If you bothered to read, gary (I know that's a challenge for you), you'll see that I cited where the numbers came from. And I also stated in my initial post where the numbers came from.

You want to argue about them? Cite your sources.

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Old 08-08-2008, 05:04 PM   #40 (permalink)
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That's like saying if you choose not to live in a Beverly Hills mansion and not drive a Ferrari it's your choice!
No, it's like saying that if you choose to drive a Ferrari, it's your choice, and the fact that your premiums are going to be higher is your responsibility, not mine.

It also means that if you choose to get the bare-bones insurance on your Ferrari, then you total it in Malibu Canyon, it's not my responsibility to help you make up the difference between your insurance coverage and your cost of replacing it.

Quote:
They may be mandatory but they leave drivers under-insured in most cases, especially for coverage of their own vehicle.

You may be willing to risk writing off a $500 car but not your son's asthma, so I don't see that your analogy holds water
First off, I'd like you to re-read my other post, in which I clearly stated there are a lot - A LOT - of problems with the way insurance is handled today.

But they are not all the fault of the insurance companies. A lot of the problems that currently exist are also the result of Americans' choices. And that's something that each of us can change.

If you're overweight, lose weight. If you smoke, quit. If you drink, do so in moderation. If people put half as much "preventive maintenance" into their bodies as they do into their automobiles, I can't help but think they'd have a lot smaller "repair bills".

Personal responsibility, Gary. Try it some time.

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