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Health Care Debate and defend your thoughts on the current health care system. Compare and contrast the current health care system of the US to other countries.

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Old 07-17-2008, 07:14 PM   #1 (permalink)
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UK Has Good Healthcare?
Yeah... This is the sort of socialist system I want protecting me...

Girl, 13, may be paralysed by disease that baffled doctors for six months - but her mother diagnosed on the internet| News | This is London

Socialism only ensures that everyone gets equally BAD treatment. The free market is a better system.
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Old 07-17-2008, 07:26 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tadpole256 View Post
Yeah... This is the sort of socialist system I want protecting me...

Girl, 13, may be paralysed by disease that baffled doctors for six months - but her mother diagnosed on the internet| News | This is London

Socialism only ensures that everyone gets equally BAD treatment. The free market is a better system.

Lyme disease is notoriously under-diagnosed. Can't blame the UK healthcare system for that.

In the U.S you can't usually even get a doctor to test you if don't live in an area that has a high incidence of Lyme ticks. And, if you do, good luck getting your insurance to pay for it. Also the most commonly used test gives a high number of false negatives.

I belong to a chronic illness support group and I know of at least 5 members in the U.S. that were initially diagnosed and treated for other diseases. (Including Epstein-Barr) In every case, they had to change doctors multiple times before getting a correct diagnosis.

One of them did her own research like the lady in the article. Unfortunately her correct diagnosis came five years after she initially became ill. She now suffers from numerous symptoms that can never be reversed.
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Old 07-17-2008, 07:54 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tadpole256 View Post
Yeah... This is the sort of socialist system I want protecting me...

Girl, 13, may be paralysed by disease that baffled doctors for six months - but her mother diagnosed on the internet| News | This is London

Socialism only ensures that everyone gets equally BAD treatment. The free market is a better system.
The free market in the US has ensured that 47m Americans have no health insurance. That's roughly the entire population of Spain.

Millions more are underinsured.

People die from being denied health insurance.

$30bn of medical bills go unpaid from ER's each year.

50% of US bankruptcies are due to medical expenses.

Major corporations like GM and United Airlines are drowning in health care commitments.

So much for the free market!

I'm no socialist but at least the UK NHS provides health care to rich and poor.

You can still buy insurance and be treated privately if you can afford it.


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Old 07-17-2008, 08:17 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by garysher View Post
The free market in the US has ensured that 47m Americans have no health insurance. That's roughly the entire population of Spain.

Millions more are underinsured.

People die from being denied health insurance.

$30bn of medical bills go unpaid from ER's each year.

50% of US bankruptcies are due to medical expenses.

Major corporations like GM and United Airlines are drowning in health care commitments.

So much for the free market!

I'm no socialist but at least the UK NHS provides health care to rich and poor.

You can still buy insurance and be treated privately if you can afford it.


This is a blatant falsehood. The freemarket has not caused any of these things. There is no freemarket in the U.S. and I would be curious to see what freemarket these statistics are based off of...
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Old 07-17-2008, 08:33 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tadpole256 View Post
This is a blatant falsehood. The freemarket has not caused any of these things. There is no freemarket in the U.S. and I would be curious to see what freemarket these statistics are based off of...

Nope, sadly it's all true.

What do YOU mean by free market?
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Old 07-17-2008, 08:45 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by garysher View Post

Nope, sadly it's all true.

What do YOU mean by free market?
A free market is a market in which prices of goods and services are arranged completely by the mutual consent of sellers and buyers. By definition, in a free market environment buyers and sellers do not coerce or mislead each other nor are they coerced by a third party. In the aggregate, the effect of these decisions en masse is described by the law of supply and demand. Free markets contrast sharply with controlled markets, in which governments directly or indirectly regulate prices or supplies, distorting market signals. In the marketplace the price of a good or service helps to quantify its value to consumers and thus balance it against other goods and services. In a free market, this relationship between price and value is more clear than in a controlled market. Through competition between vendors for the provision of products and services, prices tend to decrease, and quality tends to increase. A free market is not to be confused with a perfect market where individuals have perfect information and there is perfect competition.
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Old 07-18-2008, 04:04 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tadpole256 View Post
A free market is a market in which prices of goods and services are arranged completely by the mutual consent of sellers and buyers.
Well the free market for health care certainly isn't working in the US:

July 18, 2008
Anthem Blue Cross and Blue Shield -- two of the state's biggest health plans -- agreed Thursday to pay a total of $13 million in fines and to offer new health coverage to more than 2,200 Californians the companies dropped after they became ill.

Earlier this year, Kaiser Permanente, Health Net and PacifiCare all made similar agreements but paid smaller penalties that reflected their willingness to meet the department's terms, which, Ehnes said, made the restoration of coverage the highest priority.

Regulators, lawmakers and law enforcement officials have accused the companies of abusing that tool by using confusing applications to trick consumers into making mistakes that could later be used against them and by failing to verify medical histories before issuing coverage.

Critics contend, the companies lie in wait, collecting premiums until a member gets seriously ill and then subjecting them to an often secretive and unfair investigation.

Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger praised the agreements.

"As I've said before, patients should not live in fear of unfairly losing their healthcare coverage when they need it most -- and I look forward to working with the Legislature to ensure this egregious practice is put to an end,"


California fines two health plans $13 million - Los Angeles Times

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Old 07-18-2008, 04:08 PM   #8 (permalink)
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But wait - there's more:

July 18, 2008
A congressional committee will investigate health insurers' practice of canceling coverage when policyholders get sick, its chairman said Thursday.

The problem first came to light in California, but witnesses testifying before the House Oversight and Government Reform Committee suggested that it was more widespread.

The problem affects the individual insurance market, in which 14 million Americans, including nearly 3 million Californians, purchase medical benefits on their own.

In light of proposals to expand the individual market, the committee's chairman, Rep. Henry A. Waxman (D-Beverly Hills), said the individual market demanded more scrutiny, especially of cancellation practices.

Waxman pointed to one case in which he said a consumer lost his insurance because he failed to disclose headaches on his application for coverage.

He "was terminated because the insurer said he should have known that occasional headaches would later be diagnosed as multiple sclerosis," Waxman said.

Congressional committee will probe health insurers that cancel sick members' coverage - Los Angeles Times


With all its flaws the UK NHS would never cease coverage because a patient was too sick, or because their health care was too expensive.

That's immoral.

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Old 07-18-2008, 05:19 PM   #9 (permalink)
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'We all pay for the uninsured' - May. 1, 2008

Quote:
Who are the uninsured, and how can we get them covered?

I'm always amazed that 20% of the 47 million uninsured are eligible today for Medicaid or the Children's Health Insurance Program. They could sign up and have a relationship with a primary-care physician. About 10% of the 47 million are college and university students, very inexpensive to insure. Slightly more than 20% are not citizens but are in the country legally.

We might find a way to link visa entry or other mechanisms with comprehensive coverage. And about 20% have household incomes above $75,000. On this we agree with many of the presidential candidates. Aetna believes there is a place for an individual coverage requirement for individuals who can afford insurance. I think reasonable people could agree that at some point there's enough income that someone should be expected to participate in the health-care system. That leaves us with about 14 million to 17 million who really need tax credits and subsidies or tax deductions.
So that's what, 9.4 million uninsured who could have insurance if they chose to enroll? Granted these stats are coming from the CEO of a for-profit insurance company, but that's a heck of a dent in the "47 million uninsured" number that keeps getting bandied about... if people would just take a little bit of initiative and look into programs that are already available to them.
Old 07-18-2008, 05:22 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tirya View Post
'We all pay for the uninsured' - May. 1, 2008



So that's what, 9.4 million uninsured who could have insurance if they chose to enroll? Granted these stats are coming from the CEO of a for-profit insurance company, but that's a heck of a dent in the "47 million uninsured" number that keeps getting bandied about... if people would just take a little bit of initiative and look into programs that are already available to them.
I thought all students had to have health insurance as a condition of accepting a place at university - thats how it is for my two children.

Even if what you say is true, 47-9.4 leaves 37.6 million uninsured, or over 10% or Americans.

And that doesn't include the UNDER insured and the people who the insurance company ceases coverage when they get ill.
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