Defending the Truth
Articles | Interviews | Politicians | Groups | Arcade | Experience | Donate
  Defending the Truth > Political Issues > Health Care

Health Care Debate and defend your thoughts on the current health care system. Compare and contrast the current health care system of the US to other countries.

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 06-09-2007, 07:59 AM   #61 (permalink)
The Man You Love to Hate
Premium Member
 
sgtdmski's Avatar
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Ketchikan, AK
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,915
Country:
Points: 7,493, Level: 57
Points: 7,493, Level: 57 Points: 7,493, Level: 57 Points: 7,493, Level: 57
Level up: 72%, 57 Points needed
Level up: 72% Level up: 72% Level up: 72%
Activity: 5%
Activity: 5% Activity: 5% Activity: 5%
Send a message via MSN to sgtdmski Send a message via Yahoo to sgtdmski
sgtdmski is offline
Reply With Quote
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anti-choice57 View Post
I wasn't saying we should make every smoker carry id and wear a yellow cigarette patch I just want them to try to not smoke while I'm eating.
Then go to a restaurant that does not allow smoking. If not the stay at home. Otherwise you have the option of making the choice. Since you seem to go to restaurant that allow smoking it seems like it is your own fault.

dmk
Conservatism, I repeat is not an ideology. It does not breed fanatics....But if you want men who seek, reasonably and prudently, to reconcile the best in wisdom of our ancestors with the change which is essential to a vigorous civil social existence, then you will do well to turn to conservative principles
-Russell Kirk-
Sponsored Links
Old 06-09-2007, 05:54 PM   #62 (permalink)
Senator
 
foundit66's Avatar
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 5,836
Points: 18,394, Level: 86
Points: 18,394, Level: 86 Points: 18,394, Level: 86 Points: 18,394, Level: 86
Level up: 9%, 456 Points needed
Level up: 9% Level up: 9% Level up: 9%
Activity: 0%
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
foundit66 is offline
Reply With Quote
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sgtdmski View Post
But a restaurant, bar, coffee shop, etc are not public places, they are private establishments.
Actually, no.
In a lot of legislation, they are classified as PUBLIC establishments.
Not "private"...
Public accommodations are, generally speaking, places that provide public services. Title III of the ADA covers businesses and nonprofit service providers that are public accommodations, privately operated entities offering certain types of courses and examinations, privately operated transportation, and commercial facilities. Public accommodations are private entities who own, lease, lease to, or operate facilities such as restaurants, retail stores, hotels, movie theaters, private schools, convention centers, doctors' offices, homeless shelters, transportation depots, zoos, funeral homes, day care centers, and recreation facilities including sports stadiums and fitness clubs. Transportation services provided by private entities are also covered by title III.
Discrimination by Public Accommodations and Federal Law
Facts
In Heart of Atlanta Motel v. United States, the Court was faced with a very similar issue. Congress had outlawed discrimination in public accommodations (hotels, restaurants, etc.) in the Civil Rights Act of 1964. This law was much like the 1875 law. As in the case of the earlier statute, some businesses refused to serve African Americans. One of these was a motel owner in Atlanta. His business served mostly interstate travelers. He claimed that Congress had exceeded its authority under the Commerce Clause by regulating a local private business. He also claimed that the law should be declared invalid under the Due Process Clause of the Fifth Amendment.

The Decision
The Supreme Court decision was unanimous. The Court upheld the law.
Key Supreme Court Cases: Heart of Atlanta Motel v. U.S. (ABA Division for Public Education)
"(Gay marriage) is a debate about whether you think gay people are part of the human condition or just a random fetish."
-- Jon Stewart
"Please don't judge others by your own standards."
-- Garysher
Old 06-09-2007, 06:41 PM   #63 (permalink)
Citizen
 
team_barlo's Avatar
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: In a house--nah, make that a home
Gender: Female
Posts: 162
Country:
Points: 1,480, Level: 21
Points: 1,480, Level: 21 Points: 1,480, Level: 21 Points: 1,480, Level: 21
Level up: 80%, 20 Points needed
Level up: 80% Level up: 80% Level up: 80%
Activity: 0%
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
Send a message via Yahoo to team_barlo
team_barlo is offline
Reply With Quote
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by knot_e_lady View Post
In all fairness, the main reason that they banned smoking on the beach in California was not because of the smoke, per se, but because of the butts left in the sand.

You know how gross it is to have your little guys playing in the sand, and they stick in their shovel and come up with cigarette butts?

Maybe if smokers were a little more considerate and didn't throw their butts all over the place, things would be a little easier for them.

You know how many time I've seen a flaming butt fly out of the window of the car driving in front of me? Why is that okay? Or sitting at a stop light, and you look down at the curb and it is scattered with cigarette butts.

If smokers want people to be more sympathetic towards them, they need to clean up after themselves. My mom and sister both smoke, and they carry a little tin with them everywhere, as well as a baggy, so if they do smoke outside they take their butts with them and dispose of them properly.
I couldn't agree with you more, and I smoked for close to 25 years (smoke free now for over five). However I learned early on that leaving butts around was at least as if not even filthier than the habit itself. That is just plain nasty. Where do smokers get off thinking that is okay? Especially somewhere like a beach where a small child could step on it and get burned. Or on a city street or a hiking trail? I've yet to see a cop pull someone over for flicking one out a car window and issue a littering fine, but my heart certainly wouldn't break if I did.The thing here is that smoking is NOT a right. It is a PRIVILEDGE
Old 06-09-2007, 09:42 PM   #64 (permalink)
Citizen
 
KateTheGreat's Avatar
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: NJ
Gender: Female
Posts: 49
Country:
Points: 1,063, Level: 17
Points: 1,063, Level: 17 Points: 1,063, Level: 17 Points: 1,063, Level: 17
Level up: 63%, 37 Points needed
Level up: 63% Level up: 63% Level up: 63%
Activity: 0%
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
KateTheGreat is offline
Reply With Quote
 
I think the gov't should make it illegal to go outside without sunsceen on. I mean, the gov't is our mommy, aren't they? If you don't want to risk cancer, stay inside. In a bubble.
As for bars, I never understood why they would make it illegal to smoke in a bar. If you're so concered for your heath, why are you drinking?
personally, I think it ought to be left up to the buisness owner. just like I can decide if you can smoke in my house or not, I should be allowed to decide if you smoke in my resturant/bar. If the gov't wants to make that choice for me, well, then they ought to pay for it.
Not to mention, the thing with bars, you force a bunch of drunks out on the street to smoke. Do we really want more drunks wandering around outside? Really now.
Oh...and I'm not even a smoker...(unless I drink...shhhh)
Old 06-09-2007, 10:35 PM   #65 (permalink)
Partisan
Premium Member
 
garysher's Avatar
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Los Angeles
Gender: Male
Posts: 11,784
Country:
Points: 39,391, Level: 100
Points: 39,391, Level: 100 Points: 39,391, Level: 100 Points: 39,391, Level: 100
Level up: 0%, 0 Points needed
Level up: 0% Level up: 0% Level up: 0%
Activity: 100%
Activity: 100% Activity: 100% Activity: 100%
garysher is offline
Reply With Quote
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by KateTheGreat View Post
I think the gov't should make it illegal to go outside without sunsceen on. I mean, the gov't is our mommy, aren't they? If you don't want to risk cancer, stay inside. In a bubble.

>>>>>>>>>

Actually that's not a bad idea, it could help reduce health insurance costs and free up more hospital beds.................



As for bars, I never understood why they would make it illegal to smoke in a bar. If you're so concered for your heath, why are you drinking?

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

If I drink I am not putting any carcinogenics into YOUR lungs. And you won't need to get your clothes dry cleaned. That's the difference.



personally, I think it ought to be left up to the buisness owner. just like I can decide if you can smoke in my house or not, I should be allowed to decide if you smoke in my resturant/bar. If the gov't wants to make that choice for me, well, then they ought to pay for it.
Not to mention, the thing with bars, you force a bunch of drunks out on the street to smoke. Do we really want more drunks wandering around outside?
Not everyone who has a drink in a pub is a "drunk". Please don't judge others by your own standards.

Infact, I think many smokers enjoy the camaraderie of going outside to mix with their fellow smokers. It's a good excuse for a break and has replaced the traditional water cooler. In many companies it's where most work gets done.

And at a pub it's the best place to get "hit on" ( to use the American vernacular).

By the way can you spell "facetious"??
[IMG][/IMG]
knowuryder: and I should care what some dullard on a message board thinks about me because why exactly?


Old 06-10-2007, 01:00 AM   #66 (permalink)
The Man You Love to Hate
Premium Member
 
sgtdmski's Avatar
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Ketchikan, AK
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,915
Country:
Points: 7,493, Level: 57
Points: 7,493, Level: 57 Points: 7,493, Level: 57 Points: 7,493, Level: 57
Level up: 72%, 57 Points needed
Level up: 72% Level up: 72% Level up: 72%
Activity: 5%
Activity: 5% Activity: 5% Activity: 5%
Send a message via MSN to sgtdmski Send a message via Yahoo to sgtdmski
sgtdmski is offline
Reply With Quote
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by foundit66 View Post
Actually, no.
In a lot of legislation, they are classified as PUBLIC establishments.
Not "private"...
Public accommodations are, generally speaking, places that provide public services. Title III of the ADA covers businesses and nonprofit service providers that are public accommodations, privately operated entities offering certain types of courses and examinations, privately operated transportation, and commercial facilities. Public accommodations are private entities who own, lease, lease to, or operate facilities such as restaurants, retail stores, hotels, movie theaters, private schools, convention centers, doctors' offices, homeless shelters, transportation depots, zoos, funeral homes, day care centers, and recreation facilities including sports stadiums and fitness clubs. Transportation services provided by private entities are also covered by title III.
Discrimination by Public Accommodations and Federal Law
Public accommodations not public places. When it comes to the legal system words have meaning. My assertion remains correct. Had the original poster used the correct terminology then my argument would have been without merit. However, because the poster did not, my argument remains valid.

Providing public services and being a public place are two different things. And while the Court has uphled laws that require equal access, they have done so because the law has specifically stated that it affects public accommodations.

dmk
Conservatism, I repeat is not an ideology. It does not breed fanatics....But if you want men who seek, reasonably and prudently, to reconcile the best in wisdom of our ancestors with the change which is essential to a vigorous civil social existence, then you will do well to turn to conservative principles
-Russell Kirk-
Old 06-10-2007, 03:39 AM   #67 (permalink)
Senator
 
foundit66's Avatar
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 5,836
Points: 18,394, Level: 86
Points: 18,394, Level: 86 Points: 18,394, Level: 86 Points: 18,394, Level: 86
Level up: 9%, 456 Points needed
Level up: 9% Level up: 9% Level up: 9%
Activity: 0%
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
foundit66 is offline
Reply With Quote
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sgtdmski View Post
Public accommodations not public places. When it comes to the legal system words have meaning. My assertion remains correct. Had the original poster used the correct terminology then my argument would have been without merit. However, because the poster did not, my argument remains valid.
You claim significance between the phrases.
It's little more than smoke and mirrors in actual practice.

There are many areas that have legislation in place which establishes restaurants and other "private establishments", as you call them, as smoke-free environments. On other issues, our legal system has numerous laws which regulate these "private establishments" on a variety of other issues like health and occupancy. Regulation of "private establishments" exists, and is not illegal just because you proclaim them as "private" without any legal reference or precedent to substantiate your claims of impact.

Can you show any successful court case which fought these laws and proclaimed that the government did not have the right to enact smoking requirements upon these areas because they were "private establishments"?


Takings Challenges

The Takings Clause is found in the 5th Amendment of the U.S. Constitution. It provides that private property may not be taken for public use without just compensation. The U.S. Supreme Court held in 1992 that property was to be compensated only if a regulation rendered the property completely valueless. In addition, the opinion stated that even if property is rendered valueless, if the regulation prohibits something that was not "previously permissible under relevant property and nuisance principles", then there can be no taking (Lucas v. South Carolina Coastal Council, 1992).

The "takings" argument, with respect to clean indoor air laws, is based on the myth that businesses lose money due to a clean indoor air law. Opponents may state that the value of their business permits will decline and, therefore, the government is taking property without compensation. However, all reputable studies clearly show that clean indoor air laws either result in no change in revenue or cause revenues to increase. Only the studies financed by the tobacco industry have shown a loss.

In 2001, the Supreme Judicial Court of Massachusetts ruled that "economic harm alone will not suffice as irreparable harm unless the loss threatens the very existence of the movant's business," (Tri-Nel Management, Inc., et al. v. Board of Health of Barnstable, et al., 2001).

In 2002, a court in Montana threw out all claims except the one based on takings in the pending case regarding Helena's smokefree air ordinance.
Legal Challenges to Smokefree Indoor Air Ordinances - no-smoke.org
"(Gay marriage) is a debate about whether you think gay people are part of the human condition or just a random fetish."
-- Jon Stewart
"Please don't judge others by your own standards."
-- Garysher

Last edited by foundit66; 06-10-2007 at 11:12 AM.
Old 06-10-2007, 10:57 AM   #68 (permalink)
Council Member
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,355
Points: 6,914, Level: 54
Points: 6,914, Level: 54 Points: 6,914, Level: 54 Points: 6,914, Level: 54
Level up: 82%, 36 Points needed
Level up: 82% Level up: 82% Level up: 82%
Activity: 9%
Activity: 9% Activity: 9% Activity: 9%
nuttyjoe is offline
Reply With Quote
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by KateTheGreat View Post
I think the gov't should make it illegal to go outside without sunsceen on. I mean, the gov't is our mommy, aren't they? If you don't want to risk cancer, stay inside. In a bubble.
As for bars, I never understood why they would make it illegal to smoke in a bar. If you're so concered for your heath, why are you drinking?

personally, I think it ought to be left up to the buisness owner. just like I can decide if you can smoke in my house or not, I should be allowed to decide if you smoke in my resturant/bar. If the gov't wants to make that choice for me, well, then they ought to pay for it.
Not to mention, the thing with bars, you force a bunch of drunks out on the street to smoke. Do we really want more drunks wandering around outside? Really now.
Oh...and I'm not even a smoker...(unless I drink...shhhh)
I personally agree with your second statement, Kate. Who are we to decide that smoking is more of a threat than drinking? Has anyone here compared the number of alcohol related deaths to the smoking public? Is alcohol not in and of itself a public health hazard also?
According to many state laws, you can be chargred with DUI with a .08 blood alcohol level. That actually equates to ONE beer. One mixed drink is even more. Isn't this what police crack down on? Who has even been arrested for smoking? In theory, you can't be arrested for dinking either, until you get behind the wheel of an automobile. Not only that, the bartender of the place you had that drink at can be arrested and the business fined. The only timethis can happen involving smoking is if you were to purchase tobacco products for minors under 18 years of age.
I just think the whole smoking/drinking issue is a no-win situation. One is not better than the other, period. This country has already tried Prohibition. It didn't work then, and it won't work now.
Old 06-11-2007, 11:40 AM   #69 (permalink)
Congressional Representative
 
knot_e_lady's Avatar
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Grand Rapids, Michigan
Gender: Female
Posts: 2,366
Country:
Points: 13,185, Level: 74
Points: 13,185, Level: 74 Points: 13,185, Level: 74 Points: 13,185, Level: 74
Level up: 84%, 65 Points needed
Level up: 84% Level up: 84% Level up: 84%
Activity: 2%
Activity: 2% Activity: 2% Activity: 2%
knot_e_lady is offline
Reply With Quote
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by KateTheGreat View Post
I think the gov't should make it illegal to go outside without sunsceen on. I mean, the gov't is our mommy, aren't they? If you don't want to risk cancer, stay inside. In a bubble.
If you go out without sunscreen, you are risking only yourself.

If you smoke, you are risking other people.

Is that right?
Old 06-11-2007, 05:37 PM   #70 (permalink)
Senator
 
foundit66's Avatar
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 5,836
Points: 18,394, Level: 86
Points: 18,394, Level: 86 Points: 18,394, Level: 86 Points: 18,394, Level: 86
Level up: 9%, 456 Points needed
Level up: 9% Level up: 9% Level up: 9%
Activity: 0%
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
foundit66 is offline
Reply With Quote
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by garysher View Post
Please don't judge others by your own standards.
Whose standards would you prefer that people judge by?
Yours?
Have some religion tell what standards should be?
"(Gay marriage) is a debate about whether you think gay people are part of the human condition or just a random fetish."
-- Jon Stewart
"Please don't judge others by your own standards."
-- Garysher
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:26 PM.


 Top Political Sites
Poltical Topsites