Defending the Truth

tadpole256 · 05-05-2005, 04:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FAndy

Quote:

Absolutely not. I don't approve of people crossing any border illegally.

I wish we could help them make their homeland a better place to be, so leaving wouldn't be necessary.

Wow... Anti-Americanism at its greatest folks. Deny people the opportunity to create a better life for themselves... Hey "lets just install a communist government in those 3rd world countries- and let them slip into greater poverty.." - Yeah thats real smart.
You keep on stooping to lower levels...
This whats in it for me attitude in America needs to be halted.

Who said anything about communism? Who said that we'd be letting them slip further into poverty? He said make thier homeland BETTER. Surely you must have missed the word 'BETTER'.

Personally I think we should stop them at the border and send them back, if we find them in our coun try we should turn them around and send them back. If they want to be Americans let them do it legally, otherwise let them fix thier own problems in thier own countries, we have enough of our own problems here in the United States. We already do too much medling in world affairs, If thier country asks for our help, I think we should provide it. Otherwise, unless there are serious atrocities occuring, we should mind our business.

tadpole256 · 05-05-2005, 04:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by onlyoneplanet

I could care less--let 'em hop the border. Who else will take anti-septic jobs? Who the hell would clean up puke in bars or do laundry for a living? Who wants to mop floors and wash dishes?

Not even America's teenagers would do that, they all work in retail and whatnot.

The fact is that NAFTA and WTO fucked and continue to fuck a lot of people over, and now we need to protect our country from the people who's lives we're destroying?

This is what I've been saying when I'm talking about how Americans only look a few years into the future and forget about the past so quickly. In the early-mid 1990's we said "let's move all our business to third world countries, make their poor/working class work for our companies, put their businesses in a position where they can't support themselves, put the people into a position where they won't be able to afford further education and improve the lives of the upper-middle class yet some more!"

Now what? They say "we don't want those dirty immigrants in our country, yeah the ones who's lives we ruined a decade ago".

Besides, people should view the world as a whole anyway, not as separate countries. Abstractions shouldn't have the right to lay claim to a specific peice of land, it simply divides the world and the people who belong to the countries.

That's my take on it, anyhow.

It's not so much a matter of them taking the crappy jobs, it's a matter of them contributing to keeping the minimum wage down, and soaking up valuable American resources that should be saved for Americans. They get care at our hospitals and don't pay, they are causing accidents on our streets, and don't pay, they collect welfare. We ruined thier lives? I think not. If we were so terrible they would not be falling overthemselves to get here.

You're shame on the U.S. for being successful attitude is disgusting and overwhelmingly ignorant. We are a country comprised entirely of immigrants, immigrants who came here legally (mostly), who worked long and hard to get what they have, and the idea that we should just hand anything to some border-jumper for free is repulsive.

tadpole256 · 05-05-2005, 04:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by criticalprocess

Is anyone here a pure native american? No? Then face the fact that we are all immigrants, or descended from immigrants. Our ancestors came to America to find a better life, which they accomplished. Now we would deny the same opportunity to others? I visited the statue of liberty last year, it was my first ever visit to NY. Inside the pedestal of the statue there was a plaque, which has since been moved and put on display in Battery Park.
It reads:
Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me.
I lift my lamp beside the golden door

Kinda sounds like desperate immigrants to me.

I like the comic on this link, as it more or less sums up the way I feel. (a warning, not for those who are easily offended by foul language) http://maddox.xmission.com/c.cgi?u=walmart

I think you are missing the point my friend, it's not a matter of turning away all immigrants, and it's not a concern of them taking our jobs. Hell, we are sending most of our jobs overseas anyway... It's a matter of them consuming resources and services without contributing anything to the system. Let them come here legally, and pay taxes, and contribute to normal society, normally, just like everyone else. Do this and I will be the first to welcome you to our country. Try to croos the border illegally, and I will gladly be the first to put a slug in your head. It's simple play by the rules, and you don't suffer any negative consequences.

tadpole256 · 05-05-2005, 04:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by criticalprocess

From the point of view of the natural American, immigration most easily lends itself to be viewed in a negative light. Workers willing to take a job for two dollars a day do indeed eliminate that job for a potential American worker. However, without unscrupulous companies willing to hire them below the federal minimum wage, this becomes a nonissue.
One American argument that I frequently hear concerns the language and culture aspect. Well, you know what? Although the federal government speaks in and writes laws in english, there is no "National Language" at the federal level. Some 27 states have made english their official language, but Spanish, French, and Hawaiian, have also been designated as official state languages.
Some people take that one step further and claim that the influx of immigrants will "pollute their culture". What happened to America being "The Melting Pot of the World"?
The only valid American argument in my mind is that illegal immigration is a Huge drain on the economy, as a result of the services (drivers licences, free medical clinics, etc...) that illegals do not earn by way of taxes. This is very true, and it is also very avoidable. Offer these immigrants the same opportunity that MILLIONS of immigrants had at Ellis Island. Let them become American citizens, let them help us and our country. Educate them, provide them with access to health care. Let them become productive. Let them boost our economy through their hard work.
In my mind, America is the greatest country in the world. I want to share the American experience with as many people as would have it.

This I completely agree with. If they are willing to come here legally, I am all about it. I am only against illegal immigrants.

tadpole256 · 05-05-2005, 04:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hevusa

Quote:

Originally Posted by criticalprocess

From the point of view of the natural American, immigration most easily lends itself to be viewed in a negative light. Workers willing to take a job for two dollars a day do indeed eliminate that job for a potential American worker. However, without unscrupulous companies willing to hire them below the federal minimum wage, this becomes a nonissue.
One American argument that I frequently hear concerns the language and culture aspect. Well, you know what? Although the federal government speaks in and writes laws in english, there is no "National Language" at the federal level. Some 27 states have made english their official language, but Spanish, French, and Hawaiian, have also been designated as official state languages.
Some people take that one step further and claim that the influx of immigrants will "pollute their culture". What happened to America being "The Melting Pot of the World"?
The only valid American argument in my mind is that illegal immigration is a Huge drain on the economy, as a result of the services (drivers licences, free medical clinics, etc...) that illegals do not earn by way of taxes. This is very true, and it is also very avoidable. Offer these immigrants the same opportunity that MILLIONS of immigrants had at Ellis Island. Let them become American citizens, let them help us and our country. Educate them, provide them with access to health care. Let them become productive. Let them boost our economy through their hard work.
In my mind, America is the greatest country in the world. I want to share the American experience with as many people as would have it.

At this point in America's history an indefinite acceptance of immigrants is simply unfeasible if you want a stable plan for future economies. At some point the cup will be poured past the brim, if we aren't there already.

Have you ever actually studied economics?

HarryPotterRocks1 · 06-02-2005, 04:24 AM

I believe that understanding Illegal Immigration is simple. Are they allowed or should they be allowed to work here? The answer: Of Course Not. How people can mistakingly not understand this is beyond me. Lets examine the title: Illegal Immigration. Keyword in this title is Illegal.
I am often confronted and asked about this topic, and the question of whether or not illegal immigrants help our economy always comes up. I do not, in any way, believe that they help our economy. I believe that they are hurtful to the American People. The reason why they are hurtful is this: When illegal immigrants cross the border, they often become hurt/ill, either they are extremely dehidrated, cut from cactus, shot by their coyote, hit by a car, bit by a rattlesnake etc. When they are found, they are immediatly taken to the nearest hospital with a trauma department. Sometimes even by helicopter. Because americans are caring individuals, doctors will treat patients that are in critical condition before the patient pays for their procedures. This means that when illegal immigrants are hurt they are usually treated immediatly. Most illegal immigrants will not have any money at all. So who pays for their procedures? Often hospitals are stuck with the bill. Illegal immigrants get hurt so often and cannot pay their bills, that hospitals in cities near the border are having to shut down their trauma centers, because they can't afford to keep them open. Currently in Tucson, Arizona, out of about 5 or 6 hospitals there is only 1 hospital with a trauma center. What this means to the American People is that it will take longer to get them help when they are in critical condition, for they may be farther from the one hospital that offers a trauma department and there is often a wait to be treated because the department becomes crowded. What are we to do when there are no longer any hospitals that offer trauma departments?
Visitors from Mexico are also damageing to the American People. The reason is this: they drive across the border without insurance and get into accidents. Who pays for the damage? Well the american that got hit by the illegal.
A common arguement to whether or not they help our economy is that they take jobs that american's won't take such as gardening, cleaning, etc. This is an extremely steriotypical arguement, the truth is that illegal immigrants don't all take those jobs, a good amount are in a higher class employment. What I find funny is that these people trying to defend their illegal immigrants pretend to be so caring. But how are they caring when all they use is a hurtful paradigm about these illegal immigrants.
In my opinion illegal immigration is not fair to the American Citizens the immigrated legally. My grandmother (an immigrant from Mexico) worked hard to get herself and her family (my father) into America. She had several jobs, to afford to become a citizen. After a couple of years of hard work she was able to pay for herself, and her 5 children to become citizens.
Why don't we allow immigrants to come to America like we did with Ellis Island? That is also simple. America is an awesome place and if we just opened our doors, like we did many years ago, millions of people would be pouring in. Our country would be more crowded then China. Also, if we let a ton of people in, we would be opening our doors not only for determined people, but for terrorists. How easy would it be for terrorists to get into our country. Opening our doors would be like inviting terrorists to come and destroy America and the Freedom of which many of us take for granted.
By keeping Illegal Immigrants out, we are not by any means denying them the right to make a better life. Any determined person can become an American citizen it just takes some hard work, just like what my grandmother did.

onlyoneplanet · 06-02-2005, 02:49 PM

ACTUALLY,

Tucson and Nogales hospitals stopped treating illegal immigrants. Instead, they received a grants from the US government, along with many, many donations to upgrade the level of care in Mexican hospitals. The immigrants are taken back to Mexico and treated there.

One thing about American hospitals though, is that they spend loads of money on fancy bullshit like reclining beds and televisions for the rooms. I mean jesus christ, if they want to take GOOD care of their patients, hire a goddamn cook...

The real problem here isn't immigrants, comrade. It's NAFTA.

Check it out, the LAST thing the Mexican working class needs is for American business to start developing in Mexico where people are so used to buying their food and supplies from small family-owned businesses. When places like WalMart are being built in Mexico and people start shopping there--corn farmers are taking bundles of corn back home from the markets, bakers aren't selling bread, these small family businesses aren't getting customers. Since they don't have enough money to afford an education (their only chance of actually escaping poverty), they get jobs under the newly-arrived American corporations, making shit wages.

The Mexican working class has been hit really hard by NAFTA. Look man, your grandmother didn't have to deal with American businesses abusing her as a worker, this generation does, so cut them some slack. (This isn't to say she had it any better though). I think it would do many Americans who are against Mexican immigration a TON of good to know Mexican history.

Mexican immigrants also wouldn't come to America if there was no job availability. Now answer me this, how many middle-class Americans do you know who would take a job making beds and doing laundry and vacuuming for a hotel? How many middle-class Americans do you know who would take a landscaping job for some rich, white American family? How many middle-class Americans do you know who would take a job in a real Mexican resuraunt? (The Mexicans stick up for eachother man, they're good people. It's totally true--trust me, I live in Tucson!)

If you ask me, I say the Zapatistas know what's going on. Borders are only as good as the people who create them--they're simply burning bridges.

HarryPotterRocks1 · 06-02-2005, 06:03 PM

Okay, so if what your saying is true...and hospitals don't treat illegal immigrants then I'll let that arguement go (although hospitals do treat illegal immigrants, I have a neighbor in customs [border patrool] and a mother in the Medical Feild that tell me they do, and it's also always on the news.) But For laughs we'll say that i'm wrong. Americans are still hurt by illegals. Car accidents do occur. Heck I even know people who have gotten rear-ended by illegals. When they go to collect insurance from the illegal, they are left with nothing. So their insurance companies are stuck paying for the damage. And What about drugs? The majority of drugs in arizona (drugs that kill people) are brought in by illegals.
We are also paying a ton of money to deporte illegal immigrants. Money that could be better spent for things we need more (this wouldn't happen if it wasn't for the illegal immigrants)

So With your next arguement, you say that it's okay for mexican people to travel arcoss the border because it's too hard for them to pay their way? Hello??? It's ILLEGAL! Thats like saying that it's okay for me to rob a bank because my family wasn't doing great financially. You are exagerating the NAFTA situation. American Business in Mexico, in my opinion has helped Mexicans. American Business has created many jobs in Mexico. Before Wal-Mart and other business's went to Mexico, Many lower-class mexicans were stuck trying to sell things around to turists. These jobs did not give a steady pay like the big corporations that are now in Mexico. Meaning that Mexicans were making less then they are now with your so called "shit wages." These wages may not be all that great, but they are definetly better then what the lower-class mexicans were making, hey it's a start. Family Businesses are not closing, they are actually quite prosperous. Mexicans prefer good food, just like Americans do. We have big corporate businesses also, that doesn't mean we stop going to the family owned small businesses here. And thats just how it is in Mexico. For example, Mexicans who want mexican pastries aren't going to go to WalMart for them, Mexicans that want good tamalies are not going to go to WalMart for their tamalies. My question to you is this: Have you ever been to Mexico? Small businesses are extremely prosperous. WalMart is not replacing bakeries or farms. Have you ever asked where the fruit and vegetables that we buy in our supermarkets comes from. You will find that many come from Mexican Businesses. Meaning that Mexicans are doing fine in the agricultural area.

As for the lower-class jobs here in America. Would middle-class citizens want to do them? True many would not, but that doesn't mean they don't. Sometimes they have to. Why are we talking about the middle-class anyways. We in America have many lower-class citizens that are happy to take these jobs. How many Americans would take a job making beds for hotels? Actually many Americans do. My father owns a hotel business and the majority of maids are Americans. As for landscaping, have I ever seen an American landscaper? Yes, infact I have only had American landscapers, and that is how it is in my whole neighborhood. And what is with you having to use steriotypes and paradigms. Just because someone is Mexican doesn't mean they aren't in a Middle/Upper class job. I believe that your use of steriotypes is a bit insulting, and i'm sure many Mexicans would agree with me.

Nebraskaboy · 06-03-2005, 07:04 PM

I love the argument that if you are against illegals coming to our country, you are a bigot, or a racist. There really is no argument on this subject; it stops after mentioning one word "illegal." The Hispanic sympathizers will argue to the death about this subject, if you are not for ILLEGAL immigration in this country then you are a hateful racist. Well, so be it. I am a racist and a bigot, if that means I am against the immigrants coming to the United States illegally. Also, I am sick of hearing the argument, we are a nation of immigrants. That was how many years ago? We are not the same country we were then. We are no longer depending on immigrants to come to this country.

I see illegal immigration as this: It's equivalent to a person sneaking in to your house and you paying for him to live in your house and mooch of your hard earned money. It’s also like spitting in the face of the immigrants that took the time to become a legal U.S. citizen. You people that are pro illegal immigration need to get a clue.

onlyoneplanet · 06-03-2005, 08:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HarryPotterRocks1

Okay, so if what your saying is true...and hospitals don't treat illegal immigrants then I'll let that arguement go (although hospitals do treat illegal immigrants, I have a neighbor in customs [border patrool] and a mother in the Medical Feild that tell me they do, and it's also always on the news.) But For laughs we'll say that i'm wrong. Americans are still hurt by illegals. Car accidents do occur. Heck I even know people who have gotten rear-ended by illegals. When they go to collect insurance from the illegal, they are left with nothing. So their insurance companies are stuck paying for the damage. And What about drugs? The majority of drugs in arizona (drugs that kill people) are brought in by illegals.
We are also paying a ton of money to deporte illegal immigrants. Money that could be better spent for things we need more (this wouldn't happen if it wasn't for the illegal immigrants)

So With your next arguement, you say that it's okay for mexican people to travel arcoss the border because it's too hard for them to pay their way? Hello??? It's ILLEGAL! Thats like saying that it's okay for me to rob a bank because my family wasn't doing great financially. You are exagerating the NAFTA situation. American Business in Mexico, in my opinion has helped Mexicans. American Business has created many jobs in Mexico. Before Wal-Mart and other business's went to Mexico, Many lower-class mexicans were stuck trying to sell things around to turists. These jobs did not give a steady pay like the big corporations that are now in Mexico. Meaning that Mexicans were making less then they are now with your so called "shit wages." These wages may not be all that great, but they are definetly better then what the lower-class mexicans were making, hey it's a start. Family Businesses are not closing, they are actually quite prosperous. Mexicans prefer good food, just like Americans do. We have big corporate businesses also, that doesn't mean we stop going to the family owned small businesses here. And thats just how it is in Mexico. For example, Mexicans who want mexican pastries aren't going to go to WalMart for them, Mexicans that want good tamalies are not going to go to WalMart for their tamalies. My question to you is this: Have you ever been to Mexico? Small businesses are extremely prosperous. WalMart is not replacing bakeries or farms. Have you ever asked where the fruit and vegetables that we buy in our supermarkets comes from. You will find that many come from Mexican Businesses. Meaning that Mexicans are doing fine in the agricultural area.

As for the lower-class jobs here in America. Would middle-class citizens want to do them? True many would not, but that doesn't mean they don't. Sometimes they have to. Why are we talking about the middle-class anyways. We in America have many lower-class citizens that are happy to take these jobs. How many Americans would take a job making beds for hotels? Actually many Americans do. My father owns a hotel business and the majority of maids are Americans. As for landscaping, have I ever seen an American landscaper? Yes, infact I have only had American landscapers, and that is how it is in my whole neighborhood. And what is with you having to use steriotypes and paradigms. Just because someone is Mexican doesn't mean they aren't in a Middle/Upper class job. I believe that your use of steriotypes is a bit insulting, and i'm sure many Mexicans would agree with me.

Hey man, you mentioned hospitals in Tucson, that's what I was addressing. Check it out, it's only started this year that hospitals in Tucson and Nogales received the grant and donations to fund developing Mexican hospitals. Have you talked to your relatives about treating illegal Mexican immigrants since then? Do they live in the Southwest (Southern Arizona to be more specific)?

As for drug trafficking, it's the American's choice to buy the stupid shit. Look, if the American public gave a shit about the violence in the borderlands or the number of overdoses in America, they'd be smart about it and boycott cocaine and marijuana; but as long as there's demand, there's supply! Drugs only kill the people stupid enough to take such an amount.

I am, in fact saying that it is okay for poor Mexicans to come to America for work. I couldn't give half a stinkin' shit if it's illegal, there are tons of things that are illegal that I could care less about. Look, I know this is idealistic, but borders are bullshit, along with big business, and government. There are things FAR WORSE than illegal immigrants hurting this country, maybe not economically, but in regards to nature and the minds of the people.

Oh, NAFTA has helped Mexico? Eight million Mexicans have fallen from the middle class into poverty, you call that progress? You're wrong if you think NAFTA is helping the Mexican working class or even the middle class! Expected to further decrease the price of imported corn (one of Mexico's main staple crops), and increase agribusiness and urbanization, NAFTA is very destructive to the Mexican working class. Cheaper corn from other countries means less business for corn farmers.

And what about the Zapatistas and the EZLN? If NAFTA wasn't hurting the working class, then what was all that rot on the news about on New Year's Day, 1994? Why was there a massive rebellion in defense of the working class? Why were they showing so much aggression towards the World Bank and IMF?

The only "progress" NAFTA has made is in the borderlands where we see an increase in industrialized work and the appearence of Maquiladoras. The minimum wage in Mexico is, in fact, SHIT. Many Mexican workers don't even receive minimum wages, or even benefits!

In regards to stereotypes -- Please point out to me, where in my post did I say Mexicans are incapable of getting good paying jobs? I'm not stereotyping Mexicans, I'm not saying that all people from Mexico are good at doing laundry, am I? No, I'm saying Mexicans who immigrated here illegally, coming from extremely poor conditions will take whatever American job is available. I'm not saying Mexicans are natural landscapers or shit-moppers, I'm saying they're willing to take the undesirable jobs because they're willing to do the hard work if it means they can buy their bread and water.

Let me generalize and say that most Americans wouldn't take the low paying jobs that illegal immigrants do; BUT I wouldn't be at all surprised to see an American landscaper or an American maid. Hell, I'm a landscaper and I'm a whiteboy from Oro Valley, Arizona.

I think many illegal immigrants are respectable people who are just looking for a job to put some cash in their pockets. I love Latin American culture, in fact I'm majoring in Latin American Revolutions and Rebellions.

And though I do defend the fact that I was NOT using stereotypes to make a point, I would like to share with you some words of wisdom; "Behind ever stereotype, there is a grain of truth".

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