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A Progressive Finally Snaps

Immigration Should illegal immigrants have any rights? What can we do to stop illegal immigration? Defend your views on illegal immigration in this forum.

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Old 05-10-2006, 02:26 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lidwen Wraith
Bubbling drivel.
There are many conservatives - especially fiscal conservatives - who are agnostic or atheist: Jesse Ventura is a fine example.
You ask "what the hell this post even means"? It means that every liberal I've heard so far is for open borders or the equivalent.

They are definitely not that majority.

Who says open the borders?? I haven't heard anyone say that.
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Old 05-10-2006, 02:30 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lidwen Wraith
Bubbling drivel.
There are many conservatives - especially fiscal conservatives - who are agnostic or atheist: Jesse Ventura is a fine example.
You ask "what the hell this post even means"? It means that every liberal I've heard so far is for open borders or the equivalent.
Everything I've heard and read about Governor Jesse Ventura is that is was/is a babbling jackass that took the Minnesota economy from a HUGE surplus to a HUGE defecit in about 2 years. If I remember right, his "approval ratings" among Minnesotans (as important as that is) was about 14%.

They're lucky they got rid of Ventura.
They're lucky they elected Pawlenty - a true fiscal conservative who now has Minnesota operating with a huge surplus again.
Old 05-10-2006, 06:48 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hevusa
They are definitely not that majority.
Probably not, but what on earth does it matter? The conservative position is not being demonstrated by the current administration in any real way whatsoever.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hev
Who says open the borders?? I haven't heard anyone say that.
What do you think it means hev, when people coalesce to demand that anyone who has successfully trespassed over the border is "entitled to full legalization and citizenship"...and as a corollary also to bring their family members up here, on that basis
???
Old 05-10-2006, 06:51 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jefferson
Everything I've heard and read about Governor Jesse Ventura is that is was/is a babbling jackass that took the Minnesota economy from a HUGE surplus to a HUGE defecit in about 2 years.... .
Yes, I don't know much about Jesse Ventura's stint as governor; I only know he self identified as a fiscal conservative and deprecated "religion", so I was using him as an example which dismantles hev's blanket characterization of conservatives.

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Old 05-10-2006, 09:39 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lidwen Wraith
What do you think it means hev, when people coalesce to demand that anyone who has successfully trespassed over the border is "entitled to full legalization and citizenship"...and as a corollary also to bring their family members up here, on that basis
???

It means that we have not had secure borders for so long that it is too late to deport them. That is why we should offer them citizenship, but that is not a call to open borders by any stretch of the imagination.

The same people that want to offer them citizenship are the same people that want to see the border secured properly.
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Old 05-11-2006, 01:47 AM   #16 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hevusa
It means that we have not had secure borders for so long that it is too late to deport them.
A matter of opinion: an estimate has been made that deporting most illegals would pay for itself by the end of four years, taking into account the expenses I've delineated elsewhere such as free the education of their children, the ER hospital bills that go unpaid, all the other social services, as well as aid to American citizens who are underdogged out of work.
However,
I do think we helped to create this situation so I am not necessarily in favor of this deportation strategy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hev
That is why we should offer them citizenship, but that is not a call to open borders by any stretch of the imagination.
The only way in the world we should ever offer them citizenship is if the borders are already firmly and inexorably secured, and no one has thought of a way to do that yet. Unless we talk about a fence, which liberals seem to decry.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hev
The same people that want to offer them citizenship are the same people that want to see the border secured properly.
Example please?
And I don't mean someone who says they want to secure the border, then turns around and calls the Minutemen "racists" or tells us that "immigrants" (conflating legal with illegal immigrants) are doing the jobs Americans will not do.
Please,
as I asked you once before in another thread, don't tell me...show me.
Because really, apart from this article by David Podvin, I have neither heard nor read of one liberal who supports the idea of making it impossible to breech the border.
OTOH, I could show you quite a few conservatives....Tom Tancredo, Pat Buchanan, D.A. King, Dan Haworth, Peter Brimelow...feel free to stop me anytime...
I would be happy to find out that what you say is true.
But if it is, then why are those liberals creeping around on little mouse feet on this issue?
Old 05-11-2006, 02:44 AM   #17 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lidwen Wraith
A matter of opinion: an estimate has been made that deporting most illegals would pay for itself by the end of four years, taking into account the expenses I've delineated elsewhere such as free the education of their children, the ER hospital bills that go unpaid, all the other social services, as well as aid to American citizens who are underdogged out of work.
However,
I do think we helped to create this situation so I am not necessarily in favor of this deportation strategy.



The only way in the world we should ever offer them citizenship is if the borders are already firmly and inexorably secured, and no one has thought of a way to do that yet. Unless we talk about a fence, which liberals seem to decry.



Example please?
And I don't mean someone who says they want to secure the border, then turns around and calls the Minutemen "racists" or tells us that "immigrants" (conflating legal with illegal immigrants) are doing the jobs Americans will not do.
Please,
as I asked you once before in another thread, don't tell me...show me.
Because really, apart from this article by David Podvin, I have neither heard nor read of one liberal who supports the idea of making it impossible to breech the border.
OTOH, I could show you quite a few conservatives....Tom Tancredo, Pat Buchanan, D.A. King, Dan Haworth, Peter Brimelow...feel free to stop me anytime...
I would be happy to find out that what you say is true.
But if it is, then why are those liberals creeping around on little mouse feet on this issue?

Trying to deport a group of people that outnumber many small countries is going to be a tactical nightmare.

All I am saying is allowing citizenship does not = open borders.
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There is little doubt that the world in general is more liberal than it was 50 years ago and beyond. Conservatives are simply roadblocks on the path to an ever more progressive and liberal world. What a sad existence.
Old 05-11-2006, 02:56 AM   #18 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hevusa
Trying to deport a group of people that outnumber many small countries is going to be a tactical nightmare.
Yes, I'm sure it would be very hard to do it. And again, I can't really get behind that idea either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hev
All I am saying is allowing citizenship does not = open borders.
But what you wrote earlier today was,
"The same people that want to offer them citizenship are the same people that want to see the border secured properly."

I am asking you WHO...because generally speaking, the people I hear coming up with schemes for citizenship also get riled up when someone actually tries to do a anything concrete to control the border.
NOT that some Republicans aren't just as bad!
From NumbersUSA:


::Our analysis finds that the minimum number of permanent immigrants that would be allowed over the next ten years under the three main proposals would be:

20 million under Sen. Frist's bill (S. 2454)
25 million under McCain/Kennedy bill (S. 1033)
30 million under the Specter proposal (no bill number)

Republicans, under the leadership of President Bush, are trying hard to get a "guest worker" bill through. Frist is supposed to be the main mover in the Senate, but Specter is prominent.::

But as mentioned earlier, almost all those we see who are putting themselves out there for secured borders all seem to be Republican and/or Conservative.
Old 05-11-2006, 01:36 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lidwen Wraith
Yes, I'm sure it would be very hard to do it. And again, I can't really get behind that idea either.



But what you wrote earlier today was,
"The same people that want to offer them citizenship are the same people that want to see the border secured properly."

I am asking you WHO...because generally speaking, the people I hear coming up with schemes for citizenship also get riled up when someone actually tries to do a anything concrete to control the border.
NOT that some Republicans aren't just as bad!
From NumbersUSA:


::Our analysis finds that the minimum number of permanent immigrants that would be allowed over the next ten years under the three main proposals would be:

20 million under Sen. Frist's bill (S. 2454)
25 million under McCain/Kennedy bill (S. 1033)
30 million under the Specter proposal (no bill number)

Republicans, under the leadership of President Bush, are trying hard to get a "guest worker" bill through. Frist is supposed to be the main mover in the Senate, but Specter is prominent.::

But as mentioned earlier, almost all those we see who are putting themselves out there for secured borders all seem to be Republican and/or Conservative.

I think your opinion about liberals being weak about border control is derived from republican propaganda. The republicans are always trying to say that they are the only party that understands how to run a military and defend our country. That is a bunch of bullshit.

Liberals realize that 13 million illegal aliens aren't going anywhere anytime soon. That doesn't mean that they don't want to see our border secured and our homeland security strong.
--- help me Instant Runoff Voting, you're my only hope ---

There is little doubt that the world in general is more liberal than it was 50 years ago and beyond. Conservatives are simply roadblocks on the path to an ever more progressive and liberal world. What a sad existence.
Old 05-12-2006, 02:14 AM   #20 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hevusa
I think your opinion about liberals being weak about border control is derived from republican propaganda. The republicans are always trying to say that they are the only party that understands how to run a military and defend our country.
I'm sure I've heard as much of that as you have, but the point I'm making is that liberals are making it easier for that kind of stuff to stick by not coming forward on this issue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hevusa
Liberals realize that 13 million illegal aliens aren't going anywhere anytime soon. That doesn't mean that they don't want to see our border secured and our homeland security strong.
Once again, Podvin is the only liberal I've seen who shows any evidence of thinking that way. In all other quarters I've only heard liberals dumping on any ideas that other people come up with to secure the border. OTOH, as in my previous post, I can name quite a few Conservatives who have taken a clear and unambiguous position on it.
Last edited by Lidwen Wraith; 05-12-2006 at 02:18 AM.
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