Originally Posted by nuttyjoe

In your own unique way, Gary; you have expressed my feelings exactly. Whom are we to say that others should learn and speak our language properly when we cannot do so ourselves? Very hypocritical!
On the other hand, I believe it's actually about better assimilation into American society more than anything else as to the reason immigrants should make an effort to do so.
I don't believe it's about any threats from Sharon (or any others); but respect does have a point. I think we all understand that America is a land of immigrants and probably always will be. We can (and do) respect those that make the effort to learn the common language.
Another point does rear its ugly head. Why is it; as Gary pointed out, that as passionately as Americans feel on this very topic; that we cannot speak proper English ourselves? Isn't this just "the pot calling the kettle black"?
Please remember, people; that what we call "our language" is mostly a myth. How many words in the English language do not have origin in another country? Not many; if any at all. Please notice that I said "English language" and not "American" language. The ruth is that we have no language of our own; but have a common language mostly borrowed from immigrants and the countries from which they emigtrated. Perhaps the "Ebonics" language and colloqials used by so much of the Black youth of today could be termed as American; but I can't think of much else.

Originally Posted by nuttyjoe

In your own unique way, Gary; you have expressed my feelings exactly. Whom are we to say that others should learn and speak our language properly when we cannot do so ourselves? Very hypocritical!
On the other hand, I believe it's actually about better assimilation into American society more than anything else as to the reason immigrants should make an effort to do so.
I don't believe it's about any threats from Sharon (or any others); but respect does have a point. I think we all understand that America is a land of immigrants and probably always will be. We can (and do) respect those that make the effort to learn the common language.
Another point does rear its ugly head. Why is it; as Gary pointed out, that as passionately as Americans feel on this very topic; that we cannot speak proper English ourselves? Isn't this just "the pot calling the kettle black"?
Please remember, people; that what we call "our language" is mostly a myth. How many words in the English language do not have origin in another country? Not many; if any at all. Please notice that I said "English language" and not "American" language. The ruth is that we have no language of our own; but have a common language mostly borrowed from immigrants and the countries from which they emigtrated. Perhaps the "Ebonics" language and colloqials used by so much of the Black youth of today could be termed as American; but I can't think of much else.

Originally Posted by Katczinsky

I know I'm generalizing here a bit but I'm trying to express the idea that maybe it isn't just on the part of the conscious decisions of these immigrants to not know English,

Originally Posted by Katczinsky

What is language but merely a mode of communication? Clearly, language evolves from the bottom up, so we should quit pretending to ourselves that we should impose from the top. The 'properness' of the spoken vernacular therefore is often a matter of relativity. Americans speak correct and proper American English just as the English speak proper English English. Even in different regions of Britain the spoken language varies probably more than in the United States.

The written word is a different matter, however.



Your example isn't exactly a good one; if Romania had a substantial enough minority of English speakers, it would be an issue there too.

Too often this debate gets muddied by xenophobes, as I would probably call Sharon den Adel who of course was rambling on about 'them terrorists'.

You can't talk about this and ignore the condition of some of these immigrants and the true causes of this situation. Many of them come over here just to survive, and in many instances, they aren't even literate in their own language, so how can you expect them to know English? The sudden cultural clash leaves some sheltered Americans bitter. It would be the equivalent of sending uneducated and illiterate poor whites from Appalachia into the heart of Germany and wondering why they don't speak German.

I know I'm generalizing here a bit but I'm trying to express the idea that maybe it isn't just on the part of the conscious decisions of these immigrants to not know English, but rather because of material conditions beyond their control; I'm sure those who don't would like to know English if they could.

Originally Posted by pleasanthillskaren

Now you see what I was talking about? you assume all immigrants are stupid. too stupid to learn a language, when millions of travelers to foreign countries can pick up a language book and learn a few phrases in no time flat. that is xenophobic, to assume immigrants are all so very stupid that our 3rd graders are smarter than they are and can learn spanish.

Originally Posted by pleasanthillskaren

Now you see what I was talking about? you assume all immigrants are stupid. too stupid to learn a language, when millions of travelers to foreign countries can pick up a language book and learn a few phrases in no time flat. that is xenophobic, to assume immigrants are all so very stupid that our 3rd graders are smarter than they are and can learn spanish.

Originally Posted by Katczinsky

That's not what I said at all. Read it over again.

The vast majority of human beings are all intelligent enough to have vast capabilities toward knowledge and education. I didn't say immigrants are stupid, I said many of their material conditions don't provide them with the opportunities, which is a good reason why they came over here in the first place. As with any problems in education systems, illiteracy runs rampant, even in our own country. Even Cuba has a much higher literacy rate than the United States, and actually is one of the best rates in the world. Mexico, a primary source of Spanish-speaking immigrants into the United States for example, has a poor literacy rate by comparison.

The point is, they don't know English not because they're stupid, but because they're not always presented the opportunity. I suggest that instead of degrading them by suggesting that they're somehow morally culpable for their conditions like many are doing on this forum, perhaps we should start providing these opportunities for them to learn English. How is that being xenophobic?

If you feel bitter when you encounter cultural differences, that's a xenophobic response no matter how you wish to spin it. Many Americans harbor this anger because of different reasons; I'm sure being sheltered and ignorant is among them. When I hear a Spanish-speaker or of whatever language, I don't harbor anger because they don't know English, that's simply ridiculous. I'm sure they feel the negative consequences of their inability to communicate than I do.

Originally Posted by pleasanthillskaren

by coddling people and saying it's okay that they dont learn English aren't we really saying that immigrants are stupid?

Originally Posted by Sharon den Adel

I don't think so, rather I think we are handing them everything on a silver platter - as well as OUR jobs.
I went to Sydney over the 2000 New Year, and I was amazed at the number of Japanese residing there! I had never been to Sydney before, so this surprised me. Melbourne has a lot of Greeks and Italians, but not Japanese.
That fact that there were so many Japanese didn't bother me so much as the fact that I could not find a single, fairdinkum Aussie working anywhere we went. Every single store, shop, etc we went to, was run by Asians. Would have been fine, except for the fact they could barely put together two words of English.
We went to Tooronga Zoo, Asians run the foos stalls in that place too. Didn't have a clue what I was ordering, but the damn knew how much money I owed them, cheeky bastards.
Had a taxi ride home, another Asian. Had no idea where he was going, he had to use the Travel Directory. He stopped the car, didn't tell us how much we owed him, just assumed we'd know. Mum threw the cash at him and we all walked off.

Now seriously, what the fuck are these people doing in jobs English speaking AUSSIES could be doing? Instead we have these people pinching our jobs when they can't speak a word of English!
No wonder there is a job shortage in Australia - I wonder why?
Get rid of these people, make them find their own jobs. I am sick of the fucking Government handing these people jobs on a silver fucking platter when they have done fuck all to deserve it.

Originally Posted by Sharon den Adel

I don't think so, rather I think we are handing them everything on a silver platter - as well as OUR jobs.
I went to Sydney over the 2000 New Year, and I was amazed at the number of Japanese residing there! I had never been to Sydney before, so this surprised me. Melbourne has a lot of Greeks and Italians, but not Japanese.
That fact that there were so many Japanese didn't bother me so much as the fact that I could not find a single, fairdinkum Aussie working anywhere we went. Every single store, shop, etc we went to, was run by Asians. Would have been fine, except for the fact they could barely put together two words of English.
We went to Tooronga Zoo, Asians run the foos stalls in that place too. Didn't have a clue what I was ordering, but the damn knew how much money I owed them, cheeky bastards.
Had a taxi ride home, another Asian. Had no idea where he was going, he had to use the Travel Directory. He stopped the car, didn't tell us how much we owed him, just assumed we'd know. Mum threw the cash at him and we all walked off.

Now seriously, what the fuck are these people doing in jobs English speaking AUSSIES could be doing? Instead we have these people pinching our jobs when they can't speak a word of English!
No wonder there is a job shortage in Australia - I wonder why?
Get rid of these people, make them find their own jobs. I am sick of the fucking Government handing these people jobs on a silver fucking platter when they have done fuck all to deserve it.