Grape picking jobs !!! when you get out of the daze you're in come back..

Braindead ideas? I'm coming up with ideas that will best solve the problem. And my ideas aren't presented only by liberals, but even some of the most conservative of us. On the other hand, xenophobes like yourself only look on the surface and provide expensive yet completely ineffective means at curbing illegal immigration; specifically building huge walls, military mobilizations, and internment/slave labor programs. You have to attack the root of the problem if you ever want to solve this. Providing worker passes like the European Union does would be a good place to start, at least. Perhaps the only thing I agree with Bush on.

The founders certainly didn't say "so what". But they in fact ingrained the concept of unalienable rights into our very foundation, law, and heritage as Americans. They didn't just see English tyranny in America as a violation of these rights, but they also see violation of these rights in any country as a violation of sense and reason. I can see that the very premise of your argument is ingrained in, and fully is dependent upon your complete contempt for liberals. I don't care if you think liberalism is the root of all evil, but don't let it cloud your judgment on things that have nothing to do with it.

I never said I want to help 'the illegal' get here and stay, and I certainly didn't say we should do this at the expense of American families. Actually, if I recall, I think I said illegal immigrants being here are a benefit to American families. Despite your contempt for them, most of them are well-intentioned, and are amazing people and very determined workers. They're happy to have jobs that American families would think as hell to have. The American system, being capitalism, isn't all peachy and flowers. Capitalism survives on the existence of the cheap labor and the poor workers. Without people willing to do those jobs, our system collapses. I'm not saying that all of those positions are filled by illegal immigrants, I'm just saying that the sudden disappearance of these immigrants could spell dire economic consequences; effecting American families along with the lives of the immigrants and their families.

That's nice. When you're off your nationalist and personal ego high, let me know so we can debate this topic with some civility and without mindless (and undoubtedly irrelevant) assumptions.

All these words and you still sound like the cowards that want to give this country away..boo hoo! I knew you would act that way..

I can see on the web , the news, and by just talking to people that"Americans are getting fed up with the liberal ideas and are willing to take up arms to defend this country,so if you want to save the world ,you just might want to start in another country..this country is close for repairs and there nothing nor no amount of crying can stop it...Let the games began

I don't know where either of you are from, or live presently. This has become, over the last few years a matter of concern across the length, and breadth of the entire country. The "problem with illegals" has been an ongoing thing here, throughout the history of the state of Texas. Nothing new here. Our culture here is one as much Spanish in origin as it is all the others combined, thus "Tex-Mex" food. I grew up in the Rio Grande Valley, 7 miles north of Mexico. I know something of the impact of Latino culture, (not a bad thing), and the burden of illegals. (a very bad thing).

About the work ethic. Illegal Aliens, especially the traditional Mexican Peasants are very hardworking people, they have strong family values, in general, are industrious and given the chance would be an ultimate value to our Society. I have seen, and known Mexican Nationals who lived 15 to a home, splitting the rent, and utilities, and sending 3/4 of their earnings back home to Mexico. In their villages, they are heroes, and sometimes the only source of funding at all. I have known Illegal Mexicans who married US Citizens, had children, then got caught and deported. I understand, and sympathize with these people who are just trying to make a better living for themselves and their families, and a better future for their children.

I also know a man, a lawyer in Mexico City, and one of the National Politicians there, who has a big ranch down in Mexico, with several villages of Peasants living on it, and dependent on him for their livelihoods. He is called a Patrón. It's a feudal system of patronage, wherreby he is responsible for the well-being of his peasants, and they are completely at his mercy.
This man co-owns a paving company here in Texas. His son, also a lawyer in Mexico, lives here legally and runs the business for him. He requires the male peasants, between 16 and 45 to find their own way here, and work this business for him. Otherwise their families get thrown out of the village, and off the Hacienda. They are basically slaves. There is nothing the US government, or the state of Texas can do about it, by law, because what he's doing is NOT illegal in Mexico. The only recourse we have to alleviate the situation in this case is to catch and deport the workers.

You talk about what we can do. Should we build a fence? Absolutely. If someone wants to cross the border, then it needs to be done legally, that way we can guarantee that he or she is able to use the law of the land to his or her benefit. Should we regulate who gets into our country? That's a no-brainer. If we won't or can't regulate entry then all the ill-meaning people out there will have unlimited access to our interior, and that folks, is where you and I live. Should they have to learn English? Yes, that would help break the barriers of the feudal system to which they remain subject. Our concepts of law and order, of fairness in th emarket, and our very constitution are written in English, and sometimes ideas don't translate well, not to mention the fact that allowing them to remain isolated by language, insulates them from American Society at-large, making them easier prey.

You shouldn't close your eyes or your mind to the actual solutions that are needed. They may not be popular, they may not sound like what we'd like our society to be all about, but the main goal we should have here, is protecting our society. Then we can concentrate our intelligence, our imaginations, and our hard work to alleviating the problems extant on the other side of the border.

I've heard, and read here, the argument that Americans wouldn't want to work the jobs they do. That is, for the most part, correct as long as you finish the sentence. The complete sentence is: Americans wouldn't want to work the jobs they do, for the money they're getting paid. Folks, these people that work the jobs you're talking about get minimum wage if they're lucky. A lot of them are day-laborers, who negotiate their pay by-the-day.
Most of these are peasants, with no idea what the job is worth up here. They are being taken advantage of by our system. they have no recourse to the labor board, no insurance, no workers comp. No OSHA, no help from any quarter. As long as illegals are allowed, so will slavery be.

These people are human beings, with as much worth in their work as anyone else. So why are they cheaper? Because they have no voice. You want to give them a voice, you say? Great! They deserve it! Legalize all the ones who are working, give them all the same rights everyone else has, and teach them about it! Send the illegal moochers, and users, back to wherever they come from, and close off the border, except the already established controlled-entry points, and put a stop to illegal entry into this country!

Capitalism does NOT favor big-business. Capitalism favors free-trade, and the cheapest prices. Competition gurantees cheaper prices. Government involvement guarantees higher prices, and lower quality. Our government interference is what has promoted big-business. If we had free-trade, on a large scale, they wouldn't have sales tax on a large scale. They can't have a society untaxed.

Well Said Fred.
(Somebody get this frog some flies on the house ...)

Well Fred, you seem like a smart guy, and i would agree with most of what you said..but i just don't believe that just letting the hard working illegals stay with help out the poor hard working Mexican people in the long run..nor the short run..because the Mexican people will still be in the same crooked crap that their in now in now. I know there are many hard working hispanics in this world,,i have worked by many, i don't hate the mexican people , i just don't like the rapers, and killers, and liberals..

but I think the only way to help out the fine Mexican people so they can have their American dream is to send a very large military force and take control of mexico...than do one of two things, Set up free elections so the good people of Mexico can control their country..or make mexico our 51 st state..that way we can all have a say in the matter.

I don't think of America as a race of people(skin color) I like all the race's that are in this country right now, even the hispanics,and i think this world would be a sad place if even one race is wiped out...

We all know that the people of Mexico needs this help, they don't need drug dealers and crooked goverment ruling their lifes, so i believe we should invade mexico and free her people and free our people at the same time.. and the mexican people can have a country just like America..hell i willing to take up arms and fight along side mexicans and Americans to help rid both our counties of the crap..if it's done right.But i am not willing to keep throwing money nor risk my childern live's nor future..