I'm a different breed of liberal, one that any conservative can contend with on issues of "amnesty."

I forgive, but I never forget. If you rape somebody, you're in prison until we're sure you'll never do it again. If you murder somebody in cold blood, the likelihood is you'll stay in for the rest of your life. There is no statute of limitations and no forgiveness, because you did something utterly unforgivable. I don't care if you're black or white, murder is murder, and if you case suffering, you can full well expect to suffer yourself.

However, if you cross the border, that's not the moral equivalent to rape or murder. Nobody is hurt. nobody is lying dead and bloodied on the ground.

So your knowledge of me is a shameful testament to your misguided perception of liberals. my views aren't exclusively liberal, because sometimes reason has to rule over idealism.

Although I agree with your assessment in principle Jefferson; we in th USA still must approach the problem from our side. As long as Americans (and American companies) are exploiting the immigration problem to their profit, it won't get any better. Also, the same goes for our elected officials who just refuse to acknowledge and approach this problem. We cannot blame ourselves because we have a better life in this country.We cannot blame others for also seeking a better life for themselveshere in America. A major part of our population is here now bacause their ancestors sought better for themselves and their families.Our politicians need to step up to their responsibilities to work out a decent solution to this that still would allow emigration (legally) to America;and punish those who seek to circumvent this by profit. Yes, I realize that I speak harshly about American companies that participating in this behavior. To me; this behavior is along the lines of slave importing. Think about it.

Reason over idealism said the liberal that wants to throw money at the problems. someone elses money..

Joe i have been bitching about boss hog for years now.
I know alot of illegals get slave labor pay, but there many that make $12 to $15 an hour and sometimes higher,than you have to count the freebees that the illegals gets.free ER visits,free SSI, free Medicare, and in alot cases free collage..this is not right.Hell i spend 30 to 31 years of my life,working for the American dream, but what did i get,15 years of pain and $700 a month so far. so yes i am pissed.. so now i have to fight for my children future and if need be i will take down anyone that gets in thier way...that what a good father does.

AF; I can understand your frustration as I am also crippled. However, I still believe in 1) solving the problem realistically, and 2) finding out who is responsible for the problem in the first place. A lot of us still can't believe that there are Americans who are equally culpable for this immigration mess we are in.
Again America is a country founded on immigrants- we agree on that. A great many of us are here because our ancestors wanted better lives for themselves and their families. There is nothing criminal in this. Where a lot of misunderstanding comes from is the immigration process that our ancestors experienced, and what is happening today.
Contrary to what many say; there was no real enforcible immigration laws back in the late 1800's or early 1900's; when many of our ancestors came to this land Many came with only the clothes on their backs and worked as indentured servants to pay off whomever brought them over.
Does that make our current illegal immigration problem better? No, it definitely doesn't. The reason I blame our politicians is because now we want to claim an immigration problem, when we ourselves did not have to experience this. Just ask anyone of Polish heritage what their ancestors went through to establish a life here in America. (Better yet, read the book'The Jungle' by Upton Sinclair.
I still think that if we can establish fair immigration laws, and fine or even imprison those whom seek to circumvent such laws (including Americans) we can start getting a handle on this problem.
What is in place now is a disaster. Anybody with half a brain cell left can see the vast amounts of Mexicans coming into this country by crossing the border illegally. I believe it was Jefferson who brought up the Swift meat processing plants in Minnesota who had all the undocumented workers. This, and I'm sure we all can think of other companies; are the American criminal part of the problem. I just don't believe we can solve the Mexican side of the problem without even acknowledging the American side.
I have made clear my position to people who claim these illegal aliens are stealing their jobs. Those jobs are being given away- that's where I would focus my anger.

Jobs can't be giving away without someone there to TAKE it. but I do agree we need to get rid of the boss hoss's that turn their backs on America.(and god knows what i want to do to them).
I have siad before that we need to shut the borders down until we can bring the american dream to every american that live's here, and than only let in the one;s we need.

Now as far as mexico go's...too bad, when they started killing, raping and telling Americans this is their country i loss all concern for their happiness and well being, and when the liberals started taking the illegals side, well that the straw that broke the camels back, i have no use for them either.

I don't know if you have any childern Joe, but i have five sons, and now i know that i have to fight for their future, and join other fathers, so we can defend this country for all our childern.

Let me say this to all the liberals,we (Americans)will never have anything, as long as you are trying to give it away.

The Minuteman Project (MMP) is a citizens' Vigilance Operation monitoring immigration, business, and government.
MMP has no affiliation with, nor will we accept any assistance by or interference from, separatists, racists, or supremacy groups.
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Minutemen Go Inside Latino Immigration Meeting - Racism Espoused, Calls for Violence Against "Whites"
by Linda Muller - Minuteman Project - ForTheCause.us





UPDATE:
Minuteman Project National Spokesman Raymond Herrera talks about the radical latino groups with Kevin Shannon, host of, The Right Source Radio Show. Listen to a mp3 of the show...

Kevin Shannon Website...Two members of the Minuteman Project attended an "Emergency immigration meeting" in San Bernardino coordinated by Armando Navarro of the National Alliance for Human Rights.
The reason for calling this meeting, according to NAHR, is that "Mexicano and Latino efforts to push for a comprehensive humane immigration reform at this time lack the requisite mobilization power to influence the now Democratic controlled Congress."
The announcement for the meeting said, "Time is ticking and so if we are to be successful in pressuring the Democrats and Bush Administration to act on immigration reform, as a community must act now.
We need to ignite the fires of activism that produced last year's historically unprecedented marches and mobilizations of millions of Mexicanos and Latinos."
The meeting was held in a library meeting room and during introductions Minuteman Project National Spokesman Raymond Herrera and National Rally Coordinator Robin Hvidston said they were with the Minuteman Project. Navarro said even though he was barred from Minutemen meetings Herrera and Hvidston would be allowed to stay.
"He then made a comment about the Minutemen being racists," Hvidston said. "I replied the Minutemen are multi-ethnic. He said if the Minutemen interrupted the meeting, he would have us removed. I said I was merely correcting his inaccurate statement."

After referring to the Minutemen as racists, Navarro gave opening remarks. He talked about the recent ICE raids. Then the floor was open for comments. "I was astounded by the nonstop hate talk about 'white' people," Hvidston said.
"There was talk of how poorly Latino children are doing in school. White people were blamed. Talk about raids at work sites by ICE. White people were blamed. Talk about not enough Hispanic school teachers. White people were blamed. Talk about imprisonment of Latinos. White people were blamed," Hvidston recounted.
"People stood up and gave testimonials about white people being the cause of poor education, prison sentences, police brutality… They used slang such as 'gavachos' to refer to white people."
One man named Victor said he had just gotten back from Washington, DC. He said the Mexican congress members, who were recently in Washington, were not treated right. He said the Hispanic Caucus needs to do more for Latinos. Most of all, he said Latinos are disturbed that the new Democratic congress is focusing on Iraq rather than immigration reform and this had better change.
Navarro is planning a march for March 17th in San Bernardino. He said they will be calling on cities such as L.A. to join them. He said if civil disobedience is needed to stop any future ICE raids, so be it. One man stated that if guns and violence are needed, they should use violence to overwhelm the white people. He encouraged the community to take what they want by overwhelming and overpowering force.
Robin Hvidston believes the group is nervous because they still do not have amnesty, even with a Democratic majority in Congress. Raymond Herrera stated at the meeting that Navarro's leadership is much needed in Mexico, to fix Mexico. Raymond believes that there is a Mexican Revolution taking place, but that it should move down to Mexico where it can do the most good.
Also in attendance at this February 13 meeting in San Bernardino were three staff members from Congressman Joe Baca's office. Baca represents California's 43rd District and he is a member of the Congressional Hispanic Caucus. According to Hvidston, most of the attendees do not believe Baca is doing enough to help the Latino community. "They stated repeatedly, that in the 'Inland Empire' there are too many Republican congress members."
The National Alliance for Human Rights describes itself as a network of leaders, activists, scholars and organizations committed to the promotion of human rights, social justice and political empowerment of the Latino community in the United States.
As co-founder of For the Cause, Linda Muller has spent the last 2 decades working for various conservative candidates and Causes, including Rep. Tom Tancredo, Pat Buchanan, Jim Gilchrist and the Minuteman Project. SOURCE: ForThe Cause.us and The Minuteman Project

"If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest for freedom, go home and leave us in peace. We seek not your council nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen." --Samuel Adams

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Joe this is just some of the crap the liberals want us to over look until it's too late.

Closing the border with mexico sounds like the nationalistic thought; but as I've mentioned before would be impossible. As Mexico is our number 2 supplier of oil behind Canada, I still think this is the avenue that must be used to correct this problem. Wecan fix our immigration laws, punish the American companies that flout them by having them pay for the establishment of immigration centers within Mexico; and get preferential prices on the oil our society cannot do without. I can't uderstand why this is such a hard concept to swallow for us- can you live with $4 to $5 a gallon gasoline? I don't even want to think about it. As far as your comment on people being there to take jobs (again; not my favorite choice of words)What can we realistically do? Banish all unemployed people from America? Or just all Mexicans? Either action would be unconstitutional.

Joe, I don't know what to tell you anymore, if you read the about post and that didn't send chills down your back, than very little will.

we have the mexican army crossing our borders ,the mexican drug dealers crossing and the illegals crossing, if this isn't an invadion, than it will be coming soon.

You know what gets to me, I wrote "all liberals should be burn slowly" and some on this board got pissed, but when i show a report about mexicans that want to kill white people , y'all act like it's nothing, nothing at all.. i sure hope that when( not if) a war starts we can count on all Americans to back the rest of us up.

Likewise, more security is throwing money at the problem in the form of wages and equipment with a relatively low rate of success.