Originally Posted by alias

Qur’an:9:5 “Fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, harass them, lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war.”

Qur’an:9:112 “The Believers fight in Allah’s Cause, they slay and are slain, kill and are killed.”

Qur’an:9:29 “Fight those who do not believe until they all surrender, paying the protective tax in submission.”

Qur’an:8:39 “Fight them until all opposition ends and all submit to Allah.”

Qur’an:8:39 “So fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief [non-Muslims]) and all submit to the religion of Allah alone (in the whole world).”

Ishaq:324 “He said, ‘Fight them so that there is no more rebellion, and religion, all of it, is for Allah only. Allah must have no rivals.’”

Qur’an:9:14 “Fight them and Allah will punish them by your hands, lay them low, and cover them with shame. He will help you over them.”

Ishaq:587 “Our onslaught will not be a weak faltering affair. We shall fight as long as we live. We will fight until you turn to Islam, humbly seeking refuge. We will fight not caring whom we meet. We will fight whether we destroy ancient holdings or newly gotten gains. We have mutilated every opponent. We have driven them violently before us at the command of Allah and Islam. We will fight until our religion is established. And we will plunder them, for they must suffer disgrace.”

Qur’an:8:65 “O Prophet, urge the faithful to fight. If there are twenty among you with determination they will vanquish two hundred; if there are a hundred then they will slaughter a thousand unbelievers, for the infidels are a people devoid of understanding.”

Bukhari:V4B52N63 “A man whose face was covered with an iron mask came to the Prophet and said, ‘Allah’s Apostle! Shall I fight or embrace Islam first?’ The Prophet said, ‘Embrace Islam first and then fight.’ So he embraced Islam, and was martyred. Allah’s Apostle said, ‘A Little work, but a great reward.’”

Bukhari:V4B53N386 “Our Prophet, the Messenger of our Lord, ordered us to fight you till you worship Allah alone or pay us the Jizyah tribute tax in submission. Our Prophet has informed us that our Lord says: ‘Whoever amongst us is killed as a martyr shall go to Paradise to lead such a luxurious life as he has never seen, and whoever survives shall become your master.’”

Qur’an:9:38 “Believers, what is the matter with you, that when you are asked to go forth and fight in Allah’s Cause you cling to the earth? Do you prefer the life of this world to the Hereafter? Unless you go forth, He will afflict and punish you with a painful doom, and put others in your place.”

Qur’an:9:123 “Fight the unbelievers around you, and let them find harshness in you.”
Qur’an:8:72 “Those who accepted Islam and left their homes to fight in Allah’s Cause with their possessions and persons, and those who gave (them) asylum, aid, and shelter, those who harbored them—these are allies of one another. You are not responsible for protecting those who embraced Islam but did not leave their homes [to fight] until they do so.” [Another translation reads:] “You are only called to protect Muslims who fight.”

Muslim:C9B1N31 “I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify to the fact that there is no god but Allah, and believe in me (that) I am the Messenger and in all that I have brought.”

Tabari IX:69 “Arabs are the most noble people in lineage, the most prominent, and the best in deeds. We were the first to respond to the call of the Prophet. We are Allah’s helpers and the viziers of His Messenger. We fight people until they believe in Allah. He who believes in Allah and His Messenger has protected his life and possessions from us. As for one who disbelieves, we will fight him forever in the Cause of Allah. Killing him is a small matter to us.”

Qur’an:48:16 “Say (Muhammad) to the wandering desert Arabs who lagged behind: ‘You shall be invited to fight against a people given to war with mighty prowess. You shall fight them until they surrender and submit. If you obey, Allah will grant you a reward, but if you turn back, as you did before, He will punish you with a grievous torture.”

Qur’an:47:4 “When you clash with the unbelieving Infidels in battle (fighting Jihad in Allah’s Cause), smite their necks until you overpower them, killing and wounding many of them. At length, when you have thoroughly subdued them, bind them firmly, making (them) captives. Thereafter either generosity or ransom (them based upon what benefits Islam) until the war lays down its burdens. Thus are you commanded by Allah to continue carrying out Jihad against the unbelieving infidels until they submit to Islam.”

Qur’an:47:31 “And We shall try you until We know those among you who are the fighters.”

Tabari VI:138 “Those present at the oath of Aqabah had sworn an allegiance to Muhammad. It was a pledge of war against all men. Allah had permitted fighting.”

Qur’an:9:19 “Do you make the giving of drink to pilgrims, or the maintenance of the Mosque, equal to those who fight in the Cause of Allah? They are not comparable in the sight of Allah. Those who believe, and left their homes, striving with might, fighting in Allah’s Cause with their goods and their lives, have the highest rank in the sight of Allah.”

Ishaq:530 “Get out of his way, you infidel unbelievers. Every good thing goes with the Apostle. Lord, I believe in his word. We will fight you about its interpretations as we have fought you about its revelation with strokes that will remove heads from shoulders and make enemies of friends.”

Originally Posted by hkbajwa

Well done. I can see somebody has been busy copy/pasting for a bit.

I won't do the same with the bible cuz i know many have already tried to do the same. YOu will of course only shout down those verses as being taken out of context etc.

Which is the case with the above verses from te QUran. The hadith ( sayings of mohammad.. Ishaq, tabari and muslim are three different compilations which have no historical validity ) that you have also pasted are invalid in any case since they were all compiled decades after mohammad's death.

In any case i have never actually read the quran. Until i do i can't actually defend individual verses.

However that is not where we started. I am a muslim by birth and i consider myself muslim. DOes that make me evil?

Originally Posted by alias

As a believer in the New Testament, you can use all of the New Testament you wish to show us how violent Christianity is if you wish. Please procede.

Originally Posted by alias

You weren't born a muslim, you were born into a muslim family. No one is anything until they decide what to be. If you were raised a muslim that is one thing. If you are not a muslim and you have not read the Koran, then I can't say what you are and neither can you. What are you?

Originally Posted by hkbajwa

No no.. i do not need any quotes. I believe christianity is just an older version of Islam so there should be no support for violence.

However do you believe that christianity has never been utilized to incite violence and bring upon death and destruction in the name of jesus?


Very interesting question.. well i consider myself a muslim until life proves otherwise. In any case i do not have to justify my personal belief to you or anyone.

However as i have said to you on MANY occasions, my religious affiliation has nothing to do with my opinions. My opinions are based purely on my knowledge and not on any sort of propoganda. I think i been telling you to NOT ascribe violent or discriminatory opinions to me simply because i say i am muslim. Basically i asked you not to treat me with prejudice just because i say i am muslim.

But now that you know that i am not a very good muslim, will you take my opinions seriously?? or was all that crap about my info being wrong because i am a muslim terrorist sympathiser serious?

Originally Posted by alias

What has happened in the past is over and done with. I live in the present and presently Islam is the religion on this planet that is murdering people. Islam is the religion forcing people at gun point to convert. Islam is the religion that is beheading people. You are a terrorist sympathizer and you have proven it with your very own words by telling us how smart and wonderful Ibeanutjob is. Let's get down to it and find out if you really are a terrorist sympathizer by answering a few questions.....

Absolutely correct. Mainstream Islam is certainly fucking up. But i have only contended that this is not behaviour the ONLY muslims have engaged in . Ever major religion has gone through such a period. And as such one must treat the symtoms ( violence, repression and discrimination) as indications of a greater human malaise... the need of the powerful to enslave the weak by restricting their access to heaven. It's a simple sociological process that has taken place time and time again in history. And just like history has proven, it will pass.

Do you believe hezbollah is a terrorist organization?

Originally Posted by hkbajwa

I believe Hezbollah is an organization that among other things engages in terrorism.

But let me give you an idea. Hezbollah was created as a direct result of the Palestinian /Israeli conflict. It was cxreated to deal with certain problem.

1)Poor health of the palestinian refugees in lebanon. Hezbollah runs and maintains hospitals all over the middle east. These are hospitals running where nobody else can. That is a VERY MAJOR aspect. many hundreds of thousands of people only have access to hezbollah hospitals. It is one of the reasons for their huge support.

2) The complete lack of education for palestinian refugees living in camps. Hezbollah operates schools so children of refugees can at least learn how to read.

THe above issues are a direct result of complete abandonement of several million refugees by the international community. When nobody would ensure the health and education of innocent palestinian refugees hezbollah stepped up. Whatever their motives were, they have gained so much support not because all palestinians are terrorists. But rather because all palestinians are humans and they need and want healthcare and education.

3) the last reason is the during the Israeli/palestinian conflict, the palestinians have consistently been pushed around. Continous illegal settlements ( these started before terrorism was even a word), complete disregard for the refugee situation, and overall a blind support for Israel and disregard for palestinian autonomy.

When somebody comes into your country and pushes you around and takes your land, and suppresses your people, what do you do? You get angre and you want to fight back. I mean you would too if anybody came in and created a new country on US soil no? Hezbollah became involved in armed resistance. YOu may not like it, but most arabs and ost muslims do not consider hezbollah any less of a resistance movement than the French resistance of WW2.

I believe that Hezbollah needs to stop the violence, but only because violence is abhorrent. In the end it is counterproductive. But you `an only expect violence to cease if it does so from both sides. That means Israels gets the fuck out of Palestine and gives back control of their land, air and sea, as well as stop encroaching upon their land etc etc.

Originally Posted by alias

You are a terrorist sympathizer. Your words have said it, not me. Hezbo wants Israel destroyed. Hezbo murdered 281 US marines.