That's their personal perogative, and they are entitled to it.
It reflects the individual's decision. A decision they make for themselves, that affects noone else.

If they could ONLY swear on the bible, that would be a violation.

But a high school football coach cannot have a prayer with his team even if it's their personal decision.

Do you see your inconsistency?

It's not an inconsistency.
The president chooses FOR HIMSELF. There is no obligation, perceived or otherwise, for anybody else to join in.
It is a REQUIREMENT for him to affirm or swear at that point, and he gets the personal choice for which he wants.


The coach is choosing for himself AND OTHERS on the team. Peer pressure and the authority figure aspect come into play.
It is not a requirement for him to pray, as it is a requirement for the president to have an oath of office.
It would be more similar to the president deciding to spontaneously stand up in the middle of the U.N. and lead them in prayer.

There is no requirement for the president to take the oath by placing his hand on the bible. Some presidents have done that.

If all the team is agreeable that the coach lead them in prayer, then it would be okay with you then. I would not want to force anyone either. I would never do that. It's a free country.

That's actually part of MY point.
The presidents have CHOSEN whether or not they want to do that.
It's THEIR personal choice.


So the COACH, who is going to decide whether or not the athletes are going to play in the game, allows the kids completely free of peer pressure or other coercion to just "pray" or not "pray" as the coach does...
Don't you see part of the problem here?
As much as you say "they are free" to do this or that, the truth is that there is a lot more going on than you care to admit.

Beyond this, it's not the coach's job to pray with the students.
It IS part of the president's job to take an oath.

Why don't the parents hold their own prayer in the stands?
Why don't people pray together in restaurants as openly as they demand prayer in school?
It's all about getting the kids to do something THE PARENTS THEMSELVES don't often do.

When's the last time YOU led a public prayer alias?
When's the last time YOU prayed with your family at a public restaurant?

WHY is this an issue of getting the GOVERNMENT to endorse your religion, while you ignore what you are currently allowed to do?

You talk about strawman arguments. You're the king man. I didn't know you were a mindreader and it was perfectly legal to make a ruling on what you think someone else is thinking. Thank you for a perfect example of the liberal mind and how it reasons. You make law on what you think other people think. Thanks. I couldn't have made a better case for myself if I had told you what to write.

Translation: Alias hasn't a clue what "strawman argument" actually means, but he thought his response sounded good, so he ran with it.


Actually, the perception of religion in government is very important to separation of church and state.
Your ignorance of that fact is not an argument.

Take the "Lemon Test" for example.
#2 and #3 are directly related to perception.

The legal concept of "coercion" is another good example where what "someone else is thinking" is very relevant to the law.

You trying to mock me is not an argument.
Your ignorance of the law and the legal system is not an argument.

There is no coercion if everyone is in agreement. The only coercion is in your mind and your ignorance of Christians.

Do you have any stats on how many teams are completely Christian, and completely in agreement on school prayer?

Because one in four in this nation ARE NOT Christian, so it would stand to reason that there would be a lot more teams without "everyone in agreement". Those, as you describe, would be pretty rare.

And not all Christians agree on school prayer either...


No. I am quite informed on what some "Christians" are like and what "coercion" (and other tactics) they endorse...

"The feminist agenda is not about equal rights for women. It is about a socialist, anti-family political movement that encourages women to leave their husbands, kill their children, practice witchcraft, destroy capitalism, and become lesbians."
Pat Robertson, fundraising letter, 1992

"And, I know that I'll hear from them for this. But, throwing God out successfully with the help of the federal court system, throwing God out of the public square, out of the schools. The abortionists have got to bear some burden for this because God will not be mocked. And when we destroy 40 million little innocent babies, we make God mad. I really believe that the pagans, and the abortionists, and the feminists, and the gays and the lesbians who are actively trying to make that an alternative lifestyle, the ACLU, People For the American Way - all of them who have tried to secularize America - I point the finger in their face and say 'you helped this happen'."
Thursday, Sept. 13, 2001--Rev. Jerry Falwell, in an appearance on Pat Robertson's The 700 Club

"It's like guerrilla warfare. If you reveal your location, all it does is allow your opponent to improve his artillery bearings. It's better to move quietly, with stealth, under cover of night. You've got two choices: You can wear cammies and shimmy along on your belly, or you can put on a red coat and stand up for everyone to see. It comes down to whether you want to be the British army in the Revolutionary War or the Viet Cong. History tells us which tactic was more effective."
-- Ralph Reed, Los Angeles Times, March 22, 1992, admitting that he wants to deceive us regarding his true aims

"I want you to just let a wave of intolerance wash over you. I want you to let a wave of hatred wash over you. Yes, hate is good.... Our goal is a Christian nation. We have a Biblical duty, we are called by God, to conquer this country. We don't want equal time. We don't want pluralism."
-- Randall Terry, quoted in The News-Sentinel, Fort Wayne, Indiana, August 16, 1993

"We are to make Bible-obeying disciples of anybody that gets in our way."
--Jay Grimstead, February 1987

"Nobody has the right to worship on this planet any other God than Jehovah. And therefore the state does not have the responsibility to defend anybody's pseudo-right to worship an idol."
--Rev. Joseph Morecraft,Chalcedon Presbyterian Church, Marietta, Georgia, quoted in "the Public Eye," June 1994

" We are engaged in a social, political, and cultural war. There's a lot of talk in America about pluralism. But the bottom line is somebody's values will prevail. And the winner gets the right to teach our children what to believe."
-- Gary Bauer, (source unknown)

"We are approaching a time when Christians, especially, may have to declare the social contract between Enlightenment rationalists and Biblical believers - which formed the basis of the constitution written at our nation's founding - null and void."
--Cal Thomas, conservative commentator; Washington Times, 1996-OCT-23

"The [Supreme} Court by seeking to equate Christianity with other religions merely assaults the one faith. The Court in essence is assailing the true God by democratizing the Christian religion."
John Whitehead, founder & president of the Rutherford Institute, The Separation Illusion

"We're going to bring back God and the Bible and drive the gods of secular humanism right out of the public schools of America."
-- Pat Buchanan, campaign address at an anti-gay rally in Des Moines, Iowa, February 11, 1996
Bozo Speak in Black

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And quite frankly alias, judging from your own demonstrated intolerance for liberals and muslims, your claims of "equality" are incredibly shallow.
You claim "coercion" is in my head, but you present the EXTREME IMAGE of anti-muslim prejudice. Do you really think that there wouldn't be any undue pressure on a muslim kid who wanted to pray on a team with YOU as coach???

I am anti-muslim for a reason. The religion demeans everyone and enslaves people and is of the devil.

You are anti-Christian and your bias every day on this forum proves it. All you have is what you think someone is saying or doing. That's not good enough. Why don't you try using the law in the constitution for your argument instead of emotion of what you think Christian people think.