Yeah, but where was the drive to "liberate" the Iraqi people and spread "democracy" at that time. All i'm saying is that the US dons the cape of magnanimity when it is required, and COMPLETELY IGNORES tyrannical dictators when it is to US advantage. Again that is not a critique. Realpolitik is real politics. But at least leave the sanctimonious attitude at home.
It is true that America is damned if it does and damned if it doesn't.. Or so it would seem. The ACTUAL critique would be that the US meddles where it is not wanted and ignores those places that could gain from their arbitration.. LIke the Palestinian conflict.
No doubt that sectarian strife is a wholly "muslim" issue to deal with. The US can do NOTHING in that sphere. But a few things you say are actaully untrue.

THe IRaq war didn't come to US borders. The US came to IRaq. It has been firmly established that AQ had NOTHING to do in Iraq. In fact the Iraq war has been BRILLIANT for AQ because Saddam never let them gain any power in Iraq during his time.

Even though Bush has repeatedly tried to make a link between Iraq and AQ, no such link exists. So the Iraq war was INITIATED by the US for whatever reasons. If Iraq is being torn apart at the seams today, it is NOT because they had anything to do with 9/11.

It is very hard for an outsider to believe that the US didn't want a war. ESPECIALLY since no REAL reason was given for the war in Iraq ( apart from a few platitudes mainly meant for the US population). How is the rest of the world supposed to assume that the US doesn't want war, when it went out of its way to find flimsy excuses to start one?
Well again that is not exactly true. First of all OBL is the spawn of the CIA. Had he not been backed so heavily by the CIA with combat training for the mujahedin and even financial backing, he would not have had the infrastructure to create a training regime for a terrorist network.

Also i think you would be mistaken in believing that OBL created the hatred against the US. That is not true. OBL EXPLOITS the hatred for the US. The hatred itself is a direct result of US attitudes and actions the world over. Honestly, do you really think US foreign policy makes any friends?

FOr instance don't you think that the proliferation of anti-american socialist governments in South America is because of OBL? Not at all. These governments are gaining power because the common voter will not tolerate bullying by the US.

How about Europe? The NATO countries are sick of US bullying, and are increasingly following their own course diverging from US lines.

Is the US going to keep blaming others for the hatred against them? DO you think MAYBE, just MAYBE there MIGHT be some truth to the grivances heard all over the world?

Again there are plenty of "plans" floating around. ONE plan would be a fair arbitration of the Palestinian conflict. This will require that the US diverge from its unconditional support of Israel.. but it will improve the situation 100 fold.

Another would be Strngthening the democratic process of the UN. This would require that the 5 permanent members lose their right to unilaterally veto any action. The MAIN REASON the UN never manages to take decisive action is because there is always a RUssia or China or US or Britain or France to veto any decisive action.

Dammit if you are democratic nations then you should be able to accept international democracy too.

Yet another plan would be a council of communication. The fact is the MOST hatred in this world is unjust hatred based on prejudice. Just like a dismally large number of americans think that all muslims are bearded whackos who eat their own young, muslims tend to think of western christians as promiscuous, immoral, war hungry, blood thirsty barbarians.

Fact is that BOTH views are stupid. But that stupidity can only be highlighted by honest and true communication and dialogue.. NEVER by armed conflict. In fact armed conflict only serves to CONFIRM these prejudices.

As to whether the US was attacked first, well that is a matter of opinion. 9/11 was not the BEGINNING of anything. Rather it was the CULMINATION of years of fementing hatred caused by US actions the world over. Just because 9/11 was the day the american people woke up to the fact that they are not the best loved of nations in the world doesn't mean that the hate erupted suddenly and without any reason. Non-americans are human too. And as humans they too go to work, look after their community ( as best as they know how) and wish for peace and harmony. SO if they are driven to point of such extreme hatred.. well there has to be reason. At least a reason deeper than "they are evil .. that is why they hate this otherwise lovable, generous, just and righteous nation".
Well i think it is quite arrogant to assume that non-americans don't act the same.

However the US has already passed through the phase of upheaval when you shift from a feudal/tribal/theocratic society to a democratic one. Also, the US has never had outside nations interfering with their governance.

You make it sound like the US was merely minding its own business when they were suddenly attacked unprovoked. That is a simplistic view which completely excludes the possibility of a solution quite simply because you will refuse to review US international actions, EVEN THOUGH it might field some explanation as to why such hatred exists.

That is NOT a fact. However don't get me wrong. The "muslim" world needs to get their act together. Thankfully it is happening slowly but surely. It is also without a doubt that the US MUST be a part of any solution. But in order to affect the situation POSITIVELY the US may have to accept that some of their policies and actions are just plain WRONG if the ultimate goal is peace.
Well the better proposal was to not go into Iraq in the first place ( like the rest of the world kept saying). However now they are there what can be done. WELL firstly leave the democratic process alone. Should the Iraqis vote for a fundamentalist anti-american party.. well then that is THEIR choice. The democratic process allows them to do so. SO no more vetting of political candidates. No more approval by US authorities. No more kidnapping and illegal incarceration of Iraqi citizens.

Secondly, the US needs to leave Iraq asap. Continued military presence will only engender hatred and do nothing to secure peace. If Iraq plunges into civil war, it will definately be the US' fault.. But that doesn't change the fact that it would be best just get out. The US invaded Iraq and now must face the consequences. ONE of those consequences will be condemnation of US policies for destroying IRaqi infrastructure and starting a civil war. Too bad, but it wasn't like you weren't warned.
The innocent of Iraq have already been taken over by the violent. Just because it is the US it does NOT mean that it hasn't killed nearly 300,000 Iraqi innocents( note i'm only quoting HALF the estimated number). Violence is violence, and unlike American citizens, Iraqis don't consider US violence to be OK or justified. Dammit you invaded their country. Should they get down and thank you for starting a war on their soil?

It is a fallacy to assume that the US is less violent. The only difference in THEIR minds is that the US shoots from a distance with advanced weapons, whereas locals have to make do with their own bodies. The end result is the SAME. People die.

With all that you have said hk. Do you really think the average American Joe is at fault? If you do you are as off as some of your rantings in your post. Throughout the world 1% hold the wealth. That 1% pulls the strings of peace and war throughout the world to retain their 1% and retain control.

Secondly, I believe that the 98% would tell you where to go concerning the UN having any say here in America. The record of the UN sucks worse than the record of the leaders here in America. If the UN cared so deeply about justice and the people of the world, then they should get off of their asses and do something about it when innocent people are murdered. They haven't and they are not even today. It makes no difference whether those people are Muslim, Christian or Budhist or whatever. If the UN cared so deeply about people it would send in some protection for people when they are being mass murdered. This is not the case.

I did not say that the majority in the rest of the world do not want the same. Most want to live in peace and harmony and take care of their families.

Since there is 1% with the wealth and 1% in charge of the political aspects throughout the world. Then I would suggest you need to concentrate on getting the attention of that 2 %. This needs to be done by talking not bombing or shooting to get attention. Violence by splinter groups on any soil will only result in more violence.

As far as Iraq goes. American troops are not pulling out any time soon. It would be to the advantage of militants there to seek a peaceful solution. Violence will only breed more violence.

Stories from within Iraq have it that many are grateful for the protection of the American troops there. I say that as one who has a nephew there who calls home often. Do you have family there?

I most certainly do not think the average american is at fault. At worst they are uninformed or MISinformed, for which they cannot be blamed. So there is no condemnation there.

In fact i agree with your statement that it is 1 % in the world that gain from conflict. But that also includes the very highest echelons of american society including your dear president. If i have any critique of the american people as a whole, it would be an obvious lack of objectivity when analyzing the actions of their leaders. Unscrupulous leaders in the US wave the red,white and blue in your face to conceal ulterior motives and hypocritical stances. All can be justified in the name of the american dream. This is incidentally the same tactic employed by the muslim cleric who wave the Quran and the Hadith in the faces of the average muslim to conceal their own obvious hypocrisy. All can be justified int he name of "islam". Same thing different names.

Incidentally you seem to take offence at my percieved prejudice against average joe. But have you considered your own statements regarding average mohammad? Is the average muslim at fault for the atrocities committed by the uncontrollable terrorists? If they are, then average joe is as responsible for the 650,000 deaths in Iraq.
Well my suggestion included a solution to the seeming impotence of the UN organization. The fact is that a security council with 5 permanent veto holding members is undemocratic. And it is also the MAIN REASON that the UN has been unable to go into the actual touchy places in the world because one power or the other has a stake in those areas.

It is also a false assumption to view the UN as an organ separate from all nations. It is an organ made up of most nations on earth. So UN inability to act lies in disagreements between members AND the stupidity of having 5 veto holding members. In fact it is the unwillingness of the big powers like russia china and the US to submit to the rule of the majority that causes UN lethargy. So to absolve one's own nation from responsibility of UN inactivity is a cop-out.
Well i think this is a VERY important point you bring up. It sort of reminds one of Marxist social theory. Marx stated that power and money lies in the hand of a few and they exploit the majority for their own good. ONE of the things they do is to create unity through ideology ( or religion ). Just as fundamentalist leaders create unity through obsession with Islam, so too does the american elite fool the american populace with the "american dream". I'm sure you can see PLENTY of unhappy, poor, unhealthy disenfranchised people in the US that ACCEPT their crappy conditions for the betterment of the "american dream". This includes accepting tax breaks for the rich ( at the expense of development programs for the poor) unconstitutional surveillance ( at the expense of privacy) pointless armed conflict ( at the expense of investment into the local economy ) and overall exploitation of average joe ( i mean shit dude they can't even agree on a decent minimum wage ).

Please don't view this as an attempt to invalidate the american dream. In fact i think the american dream is a brilliant concept. HOWEVER it is being twisted to justify all types of actions that run contrary to the american dream. For instance the concept of justice and democracy for all is the MOST JUST concept of all. However that does NOT automatically mean that just because Mr. President says certain actions are FOR This cause, that it IN ACTUALITY promotes justice and democracy.

For instance i believe that the IRaq war in fact does the OPPOSITE. It WEAKENS the largest democracy on earth, while strengthening the theocratic cause of the fundamentalist muslims. This is not an attack on the american dream, but rather an observation that current tactics are not helpful in promoting that dream.
That is correct. But the violence exists primarily due to american presence. By leaving Iraq, the violence is in all probability going ot erupt into full scale civil war ( in fact i think it already has). But the US serves NO PURPOSE in sticking around OTHER THAN demonizing themselves.

Personally i believe that ALL US activity in Iraq should be replaced by UN peacekeepers.
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No i don't have family there. But no offense, but we have a US soldier stationed in Iraq ( Fallujah i think) who posts here on this forum who claims the exact opposite. Funny thing is that he was all FOR the Iraq war before he went there.

Oh and lastly.. Dear friend i am debating with you. No reason to refer to my discussion with you as rantings.

Hk, you have your opinions. It is that simple. I have mine.

The American dream is more than a concept. I know I have lived it my entire life in this life here.

Certain nut cases in the UN do nothing more than acuse other nations for their on national problems. Why would Americans want these nut cases to have any say in our policies.

For nations with problems it will be the same as it is here. When the people can live in peace with each other, their nations will prosper. Until then their hatreds for one another will consume them.

I completely agree with that. Exactly how does US actions like:

1) The Korean War
2) The Vietnam War
3) Installing Emmanuel Noriega as dictator
4) Supplying weapons to the Contras
5) Funding the fundamentalist Afghan Mujahedin through the Pakistani dictator
6) Denying the results of a free and fair election in Palestine
7) Supplying weapons to two warring nations ( Iran/Iraq)
Guantanamo
9) The Iraq invasion
and a host of other things do to promote peace?

Some of these actions can be construed as "self defense".. SOme can NOT.

Ok i am really not trying to demonize the US. I am just trying to provide a counterbalance to the constant attempts to SANCTIFY the US.

The US is a nation like any other nation. It believes in its sovereignty. It believes in its right to protect itself. It believes in national interest.

It is also a nation run by HUMANS and as such subject to the same weaknesses and errors of any other nation. As such it is NO WORSE than any other nation in the world. But it most certainly is NOT any BETTER than all the nations in the world. That is a false sentiment that the US has in common with ALL NATIONS IN THE WORLD.

Anyhow i agree with your statement that sovereign nations sort out their own crap. But only if they are LEFT ALONE to sort out their own crap.

Anyhow i'm sorry if i come across as an anti-US nutjob. I'm really not. I DO however take issue with self-righteousness. It is the self righteous belief in one's nation's perfection and infallibility that prevents solutions.

If this could change, then possibly these nations could review their actions and make the necessary alterations where required. But how can they fix ANYTHING if they refuse to acknowledge their mistakes?

Well i figured the purpose of stating opinions here is not to guard them jealously but rather submit them to review and critique . It is how humanity grows.
Well i would disagree with that. The american dream is a CONCEPT which the american nation rallies around. However as to how to IMPLEMENT the dream, there is far to go before consensus is reached. And there are OCEANS to cross before it is ACTUALLY practiced.

How would YOU describe the "american dream"? I'm interested.
Well i suppose you are right there. But don't ALL nations have the right to have the same attitude as the UN? What you speak of here is actually the concept of SOVEREIGNTY. On one hand you claim that the US is NOT subject to UN approval because of their sovereignty. But on the other hand there is nothing to keep you flying off the handle when any other nations refuses to accept UN superiority. LIke for instance justifying the Iraq war by Saddam's contravention of UN resolution. That's a bit hypocritical no?


I completely agree with that. Exactly how does US actions like:

1) The Korean War
2) The Vietnam War
3) Installing Emmanuel Noriega as dictator
4) Supplying weapons to the Contras
5) Funding the fundamentalist Afghan Mujahedin through the Pakistani dictator
6) Denying the results of a free and fair election in Palestine
7) Supplying weapons to two warring nations ( Iran/Iraq)
Guantanamo
9) The Iraq invasion
and a host of other things do to promote peace?

Some of these actions can be construed as "self defense".. SOme can NOT.

Ok i am really not trying to demonize the US. I am just trying to provide a counterbalance to the constant attempts to SANCTIFY the US.

The US is a nation like any other nation. It believes in its sovereignty. It believes in its right to protect itself. It believes in national interest.

It is also a nation run by HUMANS and as such subject to the same weaknesses and errors of any other nation. As such it is NO WORSE than any other nation in the world. But it most certainly is NOT any BETTER than all the nations in the world. That is a false sentiment that the US has in common with ALL NATIONS IN THE WORLD.

Anyhow i agree with your statement that sovereign nations sort out their own crap. But only if they are LEFT ALONE to sort out their own crap.

Anyhow i'm sorry if i come across as an anti-US nutjob. I'm really not. I DO however take issue with self-righteousness. It is the self righteous belief in one's nation's perfection and infallibility that prevents solutions.

If this could change, then possibly these nations could review their actions and make the necessary alterations where required. But how can they fix ANYTHING if they refuse to acknowledge their mistakes?

hk, there is none perfect here. You know that as well as anyone else. There are a few though that put in more effort than others.

You may have your concepts on the American dream but like I said I lived it. From an average family with a pop as a union worker to a single parent with little hope and very little education. To a self employed contractor. I have live from one scale to the other in my fifty years here. From extreme poverty to a small amount of wealth back to extreme poverty. Most all of it was a result of choices I made. I even have to say the last adventure began as a choice. The results would not have been what I had thought would transpire but hey it has been a learning experience.

I would not trade this country for another. At least in America there is some hope and still a few opportunities for people to make their dreams come true.

In this world where people live in the flesh it is always going to be a work in progress.

You can go through and state examples on your veiw of events. Yet the truth is this. Many in Iraq are very upset because there are not enough protections in place to protect them from the nutjobs there and they blame America for that.

A short story for you. I have this dog and I love him dearly. He is two hundred pounds, white and one of the lovelyist creatures you will ever find. Sweet loving and loyal. He has some things though. He has skin allergies so he has to have a special diet. As much as he would eat anything if his diet has anything that has yeast in it we have major skin rashes with him. He also has these weird long toenails that have to be manicured continually. Can you imagine manicuring a two hundred pound dog's toenails? He outwheighs me by forty pounds at least and does not like his feet manicured. The only solution is to let his toenails grow or clip them. If I let them grow he will eventually snag one of them on something and then I have a two pound dog that is limping and in pain. The other choice is wrestle him down sit on him and clip his toenails. The other thing is he likes to be close to me. So he wants to be by my side continually. I can tell you a two hundred pound dog gets really stinky if he does not get regular bathes. So I require that he takes a bathe like it or not. He does not care for the bathes but they are most definately needed in order to share living space.

Now you may consider that a self righteous additude. I consider it common sense. The dog could either stay with someone else and live with the beast in the feild or he can live under my roof and stay well groomed.

You may think he would rather live outside among the other animals but the fact is it is the dogs choice he stays by my side and we work together to make each others life enjoyable. You may also think at two hundred pounds he would fear nothing. Actually though for the first four years of his life when he would get scared he would run and stand behind me. He is five years old now and he stands in front of me when he thinks there is adversity.

I never beat the dog to train him just talked to him. One day when he was three years old he growled at me. My fist wound up in his face. It was more of an automactic reaction than anything. From that day forward we had this understanding. No growling at the hand that opens the door so you can potty outside and not in the house.

Oh come on Rod.

While i think your treatment of your dog is brilliant ( what breed is he btw.. i love dogs) you can hardly relate your treatment dog to the Iraq policy.

It is an estblished fact that as a human you are smarter and more knowledgeable than a dog. But it would be arrogant of ANY nation to assume that they know SO MUCH BETTER than another nation that they have the right to FORCE "the right choice" on them. The simple fact is that no nation has that right unless they are spotless themselves. On the other hand if the US was to call the Iraq war an invasion for power ( dunno if it is) at least that would be a REAL reason.

The fact is that EVERY nation on the planet needs to do some house cleaning ( some nations more than others i agree ). ANY NATION that the dons the cape of righteousness, must necessarily also be denying its own faults.

My point is that while i may agree that the US takes these actions for the "greater good", they do so with an assumption that they can do no wrong. That's a problem. Claiming infallibility is a grave mistake for ANYBODY.

The simple fact is that while the US may be a wonderful place of opportunities it is NOT the most successful state ont he planet. In fact if you look in terms of GDP, income per capita, health, education and welfare statistics nations like Denmark, Sweden and Norway are doing better. So would you EVER accept the Danish socialist system be implemented in the US? Of course not, because you KNOW the scandinavian model ALSO has its problems.

The point i make here is that welfare cannot be FORCED upon a nation. it has to be accepted. Likewise it is lunacy to think that a nation will immediately accept american capitalist democracy because YOU think its the best system.

Anyhow i get the feeling that you too want peace. But peace cannot come by everybody following american ideals and policies. that is quite simply asocial impossibility. It can only come when each nation builds its own ideals and policies and then try to work it out within an international DEMOCRATIC framework like the UN general Assmbly ( i think the Security Council should be abolished. It is merely a leftover from the time that the world was ruled by 5 superpowers. It is undemocratic, unjust and impotent because of the veto power of these 5 nations)

Actually the dog has more common sense and better ethics than many people I have met. He is a Great Pyrenees.

You are calling it a self-righteous attitude on the part of America. I suppose it could look that away when you are looking from your angle. I think it is more like this. Something needed to be done. Boundaries are set for the nations at this point and time throughout the world. Just as you say every nation needs to clean house in some aspect. Poverty and injustice plague the world throughout and people throughout the world will have to eventually look at it as many Americans I know do.

Milosevic [sic] claimed to be a Christian and he slaughtered people and murdered thousands of Muslims. I did not hear the claim that America was a bunch of self-righteous hypocrites in the actions to help stop what was happening there. Maybe it was said and not published? Should America have stood back and watched as the innocent bodies of thousands were dumped into ditches to rot and be forgotten? The world looked on with dismay as the pictures of these atrocities came forth. Most in Europe had some real concerns there as that war was all very close to home.

Saying that America feels it can do no wrong just does not fit. Men and women alike have been prosecuted in Iraq for what they did wrong. The parents of those misdirected souls have had fits over their sons and daughters charged with illegal activities in Iraq. True America cannot make Shiites and Sunnis love one another but damn at the very least of their own sakes you would think they could put some old crap behind themselves and get on with peace. So your children have a chance to live a decent life.

I see your post complaining about Iraq but you have said little about Afghanistan what’s up?

You did not care for the dog explaination so I'll give you this one. I have one son, one daughter. They both are very different yet they each crave justice for all.

My son on the one hand was working on a road building construction project. There was this one guy on that whole project that was a real creep. This creep yanked some poor little guy out of his car and pounded on him because the creep did not like the guy complaining. The cement they were running that day had gotten on this little guys new car. It was obvious this creep was way out of line. My son stepped in and saved this little guy from the large creepy bully. Repeatedly through the course of the job son saw this guy pick on people like this. Since my son had no authority to fire the guy since he himslef was only a part of the crew and not a supervisor. He made complaint but it had no effect, (the company like the money this creep made them more than it cared about the innocent victims of the guy).
The construction company did not want to fire the creepy guy. The guy worked cheap and hey the company made money on him, even if he was a creep. Through that summer my son grew more agrivated watching this guy do these things to people out on the job. Knowing the company would not fire him this is what son finally did. Once back at the shop one evening, son knew the supervisor had gone into the office and would be back in a few moments. So, son stood in front of the bully creep and said something to him. Son knew the guy would loose it and take a swing at him. Surely enough the guy did just as the super was walking back into the shop. That was it the key to having the ability to demand the guy be fired. So son took a hit for justice sake and the sake of those poor little guys that this creep would literally drag out of their cars and pound on. Now I am sure the bully has a different take on what he did. Fact is though he was seen for what he was the day he took a swing at my son. That story is the take on what my son did. Maybe it was not orthidox but hey it worked. My son did the best thing he could think of to put a stop to this guy pulling people from their cars and beating on them.

Thing is today the world is a very small place with technology as it is. As much as we would like to know and understand a way to make peace. Niether one of us knows what the leaders in the nations with technology know. We can only have hope that one day these people will lay down the weapons and make a call for peace. Until that day someone has to stand in the balance to protect the innocent.

Even a rich man is not safe in his own house from a tyrant or from someone starving wanting to feed his family. Even here in America this fact is true.

Sweet. I love big dogs.

i think you have hit the nail on the head here. You can understand my angle and accept its validity in spite of disagreeing with it. Unfortunately much american foreign policy is not so tolerant of dissent or alternate opinions. It is IMPORTANT that the US involve the "otehr angle" when reviewing their actions and options. I don't see that presently, but i can assure you that it is vital for peace.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rod I think it is more like this. Something needed to be done. Boundaries are set for the nations at this point and time throughout the world. Just as you say every nation needs to clean house in some aspect. Poverty and injustice plague the world throughout and people throughout the world will have to eventually look at it as many Americans I know do.

I disagree with that. Boundaries are NOT set. They HAVE always and WILL always remain fluid until mankind becomes clever enough to not separate themselves from the rest of humanity by that illusion of nationhood. God created all humans and all humans are equal. Nationalism is just another sentiment to foster separation by perceived superiority. it is a destructive illusion.
Ok i am not a history major, but as far as i remember, the baltic situation was handled through NATO and by consensus. That is a far cry from the unilateral nature of the IRaq invasion. So the reactions must necessarily be different.
I'm sorry but here's how it comes across to a non-american. The US invades Iraq in spite of worlds opinion. In the process it violates the Geneva convention by interning prisoners in Gitmo. It imprisons thousands of "suspects" in Abu Ghraib( some of which never make it out alive). When the pictures finally hit the newspapers the FIRST THING the US does is to ensure amnesty from prosecution for its soldiers IN THE FUTURE. Not only that, suddenly all interrogation and incarceration is embroiled in high level secrecy.

For a non-american it only seems as if the US accidentally got caught and then they ensured that they would never get caught again. I mean even Rumsfeld went on air to defend the use to torture on prisoners.

So what exactly differentiates the US from any other tryrannical invader? It's not enough to CLAIM that you are different. Your actions must confirm that.. But so far none have.
The simple fact that OBL actually WAS hiding in Afghnistan AND that they officially confirmed his presence and their refusal to extradite them. Let's just say that a CLEAR LINK could be established to Afghanistan. That, however, is NOT the case with Iraq. I mean the admin is STILL looking for a proper justification ( whihc i would not be surprised if they changed yet again).
I think that's brilliant, but in that they are thankfully just like the youth of every other nation. The craving for justice is not restricted by nationality, but rather it exists in EVERY SOCIETY the world over. Only some places it is easier to exercise than others.

I'm leaving out the story you wrote about your son. All i can say is that what he did was admirable. But it is also not relevant in terms of US foreign policy. Your son never trumpeted his righteousness. In fact nobody probably save his family probably knew of his tactics. secondly he exploited the set rules of law. He did not claim he was above them or seek to alter them. His action was based on the fact that rules and regulations were there to be followed, and all he had to do was show how the dude was breaking them. However the Iraq invasion and gitmo and a few other things directly violate international law, and have caused the US to claim those laws as invalid.

It's a really cool story of a nice human looking out for his fellows. But it is not at all an analogy for US policies.

Sure, but first of all american does not espouse all the values that are important. A unit such as the UN is far more qualified to protect the innocent ( if only the 5 security council nations would abolish the veto and start working on DEMOCRATIC PRINCIPLES ). Secondly, has it occurred to you that some of the "innocent" are being trampled on by the US? Or at least they perceive it as that.
Unfortunately too true. But at least it means that humans are moved by the same basic needs regardless of caste,creed,ethnicity,nationality or religion.