hk, since you say you’re not a history buff I will tell you more of what happened in the Baltic. See the fact is the UN would do nothing. The UN screamed bloody murder about NATO going in and putting a stop to the murdering antics happening there. America did not have to put itself in danger or harms way. This is very recent history.

The UN is neither capable nor willing to take care of mass murderers. It is much easier for them to be indecisive, watch innocent people die by the thousand, make excuses of why they should not do anything and then try to place the blame on others for atrocities after the facts. I would hope all Americans will remain as I do and say screw the UN. This world is not going to be one nation. You will have poor always. The hope would be that enough just minded people are gathered that have the power to defend and to protect the poor and those who are inable and unable to defend themselves. Personally I think the nations that are muslim should gather together enough people to defend the innocent in Iraq and any other nation in that region against the insurgent militants and whacko "fundos" as you call them. I do not see that happening because you see they would rather veiw someone else do it from a distance just like you are now. You fail to even mention what is transpiring in Africa as we speak. Those lovely muslims are over there hacking and whacking people to pieces with machetes. What is the UN doing about it??? Not a thing.

Take your own children out of their schools and seminaries and send them in there in these places to be slaughtered, bombed and mangled while attempting to protect the innocent and set a stage for a self sufficent government from whacko "fundos". Then you can say we did it not the Americans. Because slamming the US is all you are after here in this forum. Your disdain for America shows through your innaccurate and false claims. You should have been taking the high ground first to protect the innocent in your regions and others but you didn't.

The fact is this, others who are in a US voluntary military are over there working, being mangled and dying daily to protect, train and defend Iraqi citizens. Wow, think of that. They don't have to be there in harms way but they are. They have gone into the military to help others in a foriegn country have a free society. Not just the rich, elite and uppercrust but they are there for the poor also. Our churches are also gathering people, money, food and supplies and sending them into the country. And all you want to do is slam accussations at the US.

It is this simple. If in fact you want peace, then you and the others like you need to get hold of the nutcases of your religion and put a stop to them. I am sure this has already been said and it will probably be said again.

You have exhibited that you have plenty of time to write on this forum. Take some of that energy and start a coalition of what you claim to be peaceful muslims to change your part of the world.

Osama was not merely hiding in Afghanistan, he and his cronies had taken over there. For the record, I will stand on what my husband has already said.

"If you check facts and figures you will find the millions upon millions of dollars the US expended to train, equip and educate the Iranian military. They had no formal nor tactical concept to enable them to wage modern warfare. The United States trained the Iranian Air Force. This is fact. Your explanation is incomplete, inconsistent and misguided. The US did not assassinate the Shaw of Iran. He cared about his people and his nation and he died for his people. He is your martyr.

During World War II, who were the US's allies in the region you are speaking of? The change did not come from the United States meddling. It came from power hungry local nations vying for control in the areas you have just mentioned. Our military was put on alert when the Ayatollah instructed his radicals to seize the US embassy in Iran. This alert happened before any hostages were taken. If we were going to "meddle" as you say, this would have been the opportune time to do so. You need to go back and research you history.

My husband was a part of that alert. He was assigned to a rapid deployment force that had world wide reactionary capabilities. That fighter squadron he was assigned to was in fact mustered. The squadron was launched with all support services including electronic warfare. After the squadron was scrambled, this mission was scrapped and ALL aircraft and support units were recalled and ordered to return to base.

My husband was one of those GI's who was restricted to his quarters while the muslim's were allowed to trash an airbase with which they were being trained to support their country. My husband was told by his base commander that the Iranians were just blowing smoke. My husband and twelve men were told at that time in 1978 that the muslim nation would own and control the United States of America. He was told that to his face by a muslim radical Iranian Air Force Captain who was on this airbase as a guest. This Iranian Captains explanation for his peoples actions were that the Shaw was a puppet for the United States. You would do well to remember that the Iranians were in this country as a guest to receive training. Do not think for one moment that these nationals were only from Iran. We are talking Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, the whole ball of wax. Now you tell me and you convince my husband that this Iranian Captain got this idea on his own before the American hostages were taken in Tehran.

The world is fortunate that those planes were called back. They were going out to destroy not to protect. The American hostages were taken after those planes were called back. Now you tell me who was trying to exercise control.

American servicemen were restricted to quarters while foreign nationals were trying to trash a United States airbase. These sons of bitches were screaming death to America in 1978 on our soil. Our GI's were forced to do nothing. Not even raise a finger in a gesture. This whole incident was never publicly revealed. My husband does not like muslims. They threaten to kill him and his family and take over his country in 1978. His government would not allow him to do anything about it. He is sick of the crap spewed about the peaceful muslim nation. People think muslims want Israel off the map. The only way this can happen is if they take the US out first.

My husband says f.... the muslims. The US will not hold off forever. This is the land of milk and honey. It was created not for allah but for GOD. One Nation under HIM. You would do well to remember that.

My husband is considered "old" by the younger generation. This is nothing new. He viewed our nations leaders as old and ineffective in 1978. How long does the world expect God to wait?"

And agree with what KM stated:

"Let me also add, as for the apathetic or liberal view on war or 'a human need to fight the good fight against evil' let me add a couple of things...
"FREEDOM IS NEVER MORE THAN ONE GENERATION AWAY FROM EXTINCTION. WE DID NOT PASS IT TO OUR CHILDREN IN THE BLOODSTREAM. IT MUST BE FOUGHT FOR, PROTECTED, AND HANDED ON FOR THEM TO DO THE SAME, OR ONE DAY WE WILL SPEND OUR SUNSET YEARS TELLING OUR CHILDREN WHAT IT ONCE WAS LIKE IN THE U.S. WHERE MEN WERE FREE...."-RONALD REGAN
This applies to all countries that value freedom, peace and democracy. There have and always will be people/terrorists that wish to dominate/reform/eliminate people not of their beliefs....GENGIS KHAN; TAMERLANE; YUAN; CEASAR; STALIN; HITLER; BUSHI;
As for the U.S. meddling in other countries affairs when they are not wanted...
WW1- GERMANY, AUSTRIA-HUNGARY AGAINST EUROPE.(ABSOLUTE POWERS & CENTRAL POWERS)
AUG.4,1914 PRESIDENT WILSON ISSUED A PROCLAMATION OF NEUTRALITY.
MAY 7,1915, THE BRITISH LINER 'LUSITANIA' WAS HIT AND KILLED 128 AMERICANS, STILL AMERICA DID NOT OFFICIALLY PARTICIPATE UNTIL APRIL 6,1917.
WW2-1939-1945 GERMANY AGAINST 32 COUNTRIES. THE U.S DID NOT JOIN THIS WAR UNTIL DEC.7, 1941 AFTER JAPANESE CARRIERS HIT PEARL HARBOR.
**LET ME REITERATE THAT THERE ARE PEACEFUL PEOPLE IN ALL NATIONS, THEN THERE ARE THOSE THAT ARE RADICALS.....**
Most interpreters of the Koran find no arguments in it for the murder of innocents. But it would be naive to ignore in Islam a deep thread of intolerance toward unbelievers, especially if those unbelievers are believed to be a threat to the Islamic world. There are many passages in the Koran urging mercy toward others, tolerance, respect for life and so on. But there are also passages as violent as this: "And when the sacred months are passed, kill those who join other gods with God wherever ye shall find them; and seize them, besiege them, and lay wait for them with every kind of ambush." And this: "Believers! Wage war against such of the infidels as are your neighbors, and let them find you rigorous." Bernard Lewis, the great scholar of Islam, writes of the dissonance within Islam: "There is something in the religious culture of Islam which inspired, in even the humblest peasant or peddler, a dignity and a courtesy toward others never exceeded and rarely equaled in other civilizations. And yet, in moments of upheaval and disruption, when the deeper passions are stirred, this dignity and courtesy toward others can give way to an explosive mixture of rage and hatred which impels even the government of an ancient and civilized country -- even the spokesman of a great spiritual and ethical religion -- to espouse kidnapping and assassination, and try to find, in the life of their prophet, approval and indeed precedent for such actions." Since Muhammad was, unlike many other religious leaders, not simply a sage or a prophet but a ruler in his own right, this exploitation of his politics is not as great a stretch as some would argue.
This use of religion for extreme repression, and even terror, is not of course restricted to Islam. For most of its history, Christianity has had a worse record. From the Crusades to the Inquisition to the bloody religious wars of the 16th and 17th centuries, Europe saw far more blood spilled for religion's sake than the Muslim world did. And given how expressly nonviolent the teachings of the Gospels are, the perversion of Christianity in this respect was arguably greater than bin Laden's selective use of Islam. But it is there nonetheless. It seems almost as if there is something inherent in religious monotheism that lends itself to this kind of terrorist temptation. And our bland attempts to ignore this -- to speak of this violence as if it did not have religious roots -- is some kind of denial. We don't want to denigrate religion as such, and so we deny that religion is at the heart of this. But we would understand this conflict better, perhaps, if we first acknowledged that religion is responsible in some way, and then figured out how and why."

Then again say, if you are what you claim to be do something there in the region where you live. Put your energies into changing the situations of your people where you live. Since you say that it is the young poor who are misdirected into these hate groups, start groups to help them learn hatred and violence is not the way. You claimed in posts, "there are no muslim fundos on this site to fix" so put your energy into an area where you can fix some of them.

To walk away and not give the people of Iraq an established government that can and will care for all of the people of Iraq would be a catastrophe at this point. The fact is American troops are already there and as much as, "We the people would rather have them home". They are not. They are attempting to create a stable environment for the people of Iraq can have a free choice society. All you want to do from the appearances of all your negative posts about America is to slam the US and claim we are self-righteous and you think you stand on the high ground from your computer. If in fact you are standing on the high ground to the road to peace then you need to take a stand from where you are and work to make a change there. You are the one living in that region.


Plus one more thing hk. If you are going to make quotes do not try to make your words look like mine in a quote box. For I know you have alterior motives and this conversation is over. I retain again my husband's sentiments.

Well ROD, I'm sorry you feel that way.

If you want people AGREEING with you, you might want to check out a support group. However this is a debate site where EVERYBDOY's opinions are subject to critique and dissent. Just thought i would clear that out for you.

Anyhow it seems that you base most of your opinions on those of your husband. That's all well and good, but if you thinkthat your husband's word is enough to prove a point, then you will not get far.

You say i should work on fixing things around me. Well dear lady i am. Only my way of fixing things is to clear out glaring misconceptions between cultures. This occasionally includes asking either side to review their own actions. You see i am NOT blinded by unquestioning loyalty to any state. As such i am willing to see and accept errors that you are not ( no nation takes kindly to accepting their own faults)

You say i should find muslims to "fix". Well dear lady, what makes you think i do not? I merely said that THIS site has none for me to debate with. Rest assured i create the same sort of outrage among pakistanis that i do on this site.

Whether you like it or not, i do sit in the middle of this conflict. As i told you, i have muslim and christian roots. I am of mixed decent. I speak 5 languages. And most importantly i do not differentiate between humans based ontheir ethnic, religious or national affiliations. If you note, i criticize US POLICY. Not the citizens of the US. I criticize YOUR opinions and of those that agree with you. But that has to do with your OPINIONS.. it has diddly squat to do with you being american, white, pink, samoan, man, woman or child.

As far as i am concerned, the value of a US citizen's life is EQUAL TO every other human life on the planet. That is something that you cannot claim. You cry for 3000 US soldiers lost in Iraq. I cry for the 650,000 Iraqi lives lost. This is not because they are Iraqis, but rather because the loss of 650,000 humans lives IS MORE TRAGIC than the loss of 3000.

My opinions are PURELY based on HUMANITY, and not on NATIONALITY. Indeed it is impossible for me to do so considering the fact that i am the product of broken borders. I cannot pick a side without denying my other half.

You say our conversation has ended. Well that's perfectly fine by me. Indeed you may also put me on your "ignore" list. But know this, that i am NOT an enemy.

Oh yeah just a small addendum:

You say the UN is populated by a people who wish to ignore the misery in this world. Well there's a bit of right wing propoganda for you. Let me clear something out.

The UN is made up of almost all the nations in the world. only FIVE nations have ultimate power in this organization with the US being one of them. So part of the UN's impotence is the responsibility of the US ( blame can be divided into 5 equal parts if you will). You make it sound like the UN is a nation unto itself which relishes misery and pain in the world. That's just plain wrong.

The UN is an organization that has always been PREVENTED from taking action by one of the 5 veto holding states ( with the US using its veto on more than one occasion). it is completely ridiculous to say that the UN hs ulterior motives. It has always been one of the 5 nations that have had an ulterior motive.

It is equally ridiculous to claim that it is 'easier" for the UN to sit around watching things go wrong. The UN needs to justify its existence. The fact that the 5 veto holding powers have consistently prevented the UN from taking action is a PROBLEM for the UN. Not an "easy way out".

The UN is the future of the world. I hate to say it, but the world will never be ruled by the US forever. For a short period of time perhaps. But not permanently. it is quite simply not possible. It is possible for the US to IMPOSE itself on the world right now. But eveyr time it does it, it makes it that much harder the next time. Eventually other nations will bond together to resist US influence. For instance the EU is proving to be a counterbalance to the US. Likewise China is free of US influence. As is India.

It believe that withint he next 25 years, Pakistan, India and China will form one bloc. The EU and Russia will form another bloc. The US will not be able to create a bloc around themselves quite simply because to be a US ally is to accept US rule. And if nations have a choice where they retain their independence, well then they are going to take it. South Ameica is extracting itself from US control. Africa will in all probability form an alliance with either the EU or with nations from the ME ( though i conside the former more likely).

In any case the US will lose significance ( unless major changes in foreign policy attitudes come about.. though i think it too stuck in its own contradictions to be able to do so. The US quite simply cannot accept its errors and so they can not be corrected). And this is when the UN may finally come into its own.

It is a simple fact that with globalization and the increasing interdependence of markets, EVERY NATION needs a democratic forum with rules and regulations in which to sort out international issues. Of course the first step will be abolishing the Security Council and taking the whole process to the UN General Assembly. I believe that the UK and France will readily accept that ( they have the EU) China, Russia and the US will resist vehemently. At that point i hope the world community will bond together and tell the three major world bullies to go fuck themselves. After all, the simple fact is that none of these nations can survive without relations with other nations.



What a day that will be .

hk, Actually he is very sweet he let's me make my own decisions. That kind of freedom for women is not readily allowed in your region. I watched these shows several years back of Pakistani men talking about how and why they treated their women the way they do. Some of them claimed it was from respect for them that they would treat them like criminals locked up in their homes and hidden under Burkas. That sure does not look like freedom to me. On the other hand I could understand why they despise some of the western cultures. I do not agree with some of the immorality shown by many here either. Yet that is freedom of choice.

Rod has had experiences I have not; the same goes with I have seen things he has not. Together we talk about many things before coming to a full agreement on when world issues are at stake. At this point and time none have the full remedy for stopping terrorist and calling for immediate peace.

There are things you and I agree on and things we fully disagree on. We can agree to disagree if you like. Many of the opinions you have about the policies of what you think America should do concerning the UN I do not agree with and many others stand with me in this opinion.

People have been slaughtered in Darfur for going on four over years and nothing was decided on in the UN until the fall of 2006. In the last four years two million people have been displaced and starving at border camps to escape the terrors in Darfur. To me that makes the UN very indecisive. I do not agree with what you think will happen concerning the EU, China etc...

All of the losses of life are a tragedy from hate, war and terrorism. In January 80 bodies were found murdered in Iraq. America did not do that secular hate did it.

I can tell you this I do feel for you and I do understand why you would feel torn between two cultures. I am sure if you were as passionate about life as you say you are, you would not be well like by many in the region you are in. Like I said we can agree to disagree on issues of American policy concerning Iraq and the UN. We can even discuss other issues if you like. Or even ideas. Repeating over and over in post your opinion, does not validate your opinion.