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Militaries and War Debate and discuss global militaries, past and present wars including the war on terror.

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Old 05-09-2006, 01:23 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jefferson
That's kind of funny - because the stories I've read, in our newspaper, about local soldiers returning - have overwhelmingly made it clear that our Mainstream Media is NOT telling us the truth about what's going on in Iraq. The soldiers that I've talked to personally have said that the MSM is NOT telling us the truth about what's going on in Iraq.

You're being lied to.

Why not take your own suggestion and listen to the soldiers?

I have seen some official polls that state the troops do not support the mission. Local television is not going to reflect that Jefferson. They seem to think their duty is to promote patriotism rather than tell the truth.

Perhaps we are both being lied to.
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Old 05-09-2006, 02:16 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hevusa
I have seen some official polls that state the troops do not support the mission. Local television is not going to reflect that Jefferson. They seem to think their duty is to promote patriotism rather than tell the truth.

Perhaps we are both being lied to.
I doubt seriously that soldiers I've spoken with personally are lying. They don't HAVE to lie about the government - this isn't Iraq. They don't HAVE to uphold patriotism.

They're simply, and honestly, saying that the Mainstream Media is NOT telling the whole truth about Iraq. Not even close.

And for my money, I'll take the word of my friend the Army Chaplain over the words of Dan Rather any day.
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Old 05-09-2006, 02:42 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jefferson
I doubt seriously that soldiers I've spoken with personally are lying. They don't HAVE to lie about the government - this isn't Iraq. They don't HAVE to uphold patriotism.

They're simply, and honestly, saying that the Mainstream Media is NOT telling the whole truth about Iraq. Not even close.

And for my money, I'll take the word of my friend the Army Chaplain over the words of Dan Rather any day.

That is probably what I would want to believe after risking my life and perhaps having to kill other humans. That it was honorable and just.

Still the zogby polls paint a much different picture about the enlisted support of the Iraq war.

When Halliburton is profiting off of your shit (literally) you have to question your mission.


http://www.ivaw.net/ (Iraq Veterns against the War)
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Last edited by hevusa; 05-09-2006 at 02:44 PM.
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Old 05-09-2006, 03:12 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hevusa
That is probably what I would want to believe after risking my life and perhaps having to kill other humans. That it was honorable and just.

Still the zogby polls paint a much different picture about the enlisted support of the Iraq war.

When Halliburton is profiting off of your shit (literally) you have to question your mission.


http://www.ivaw.net/ (Iraq Veterns against the War)
Talk about putting words in people's mouths...

So basically anything you don't agree with is either wrong, mis-quoted, or the result of an ulterior motive.

Nice...
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Old 05-09-2006, 03:50 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jefferson
Talk about putting words in people's mouths...

So basically anything you don't agree with is either wrong, mis-quoted, or the result of an ulterior motive.

Nice...

No, I think soliders who hold a positive view of the Iraq war are the minority currently.
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Old 05-09-2006, 04:38 PM   #26 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hevusa
No, I think soliders who hold a positive view of the Iraq war are the minority currently.
That very well could be.

But you should also admit (which I think you do) that that is your "opinion".
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Old 05-09-2006, 04:49 PM   #27 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jefferson
I doubt seriously that soldiers I've spoken with personally are lying. They don't HAVE to lie about the government - this isn't Iraq. They don't HAVE to uphold patriotism.

They're simply, and honestly, saying that the Mainstream Media is NOT telling the whole truth about Iraq. Not even close.

And for my money, I'll take the word of my friend the Army Chaplain over the words of Dan Rather any day.
Jefferson, not only do you not quote soldiers, but you group them all into a single ideology just because of one soldier. Have you talked to more than one of them? Have you talked to the veterans (which, unlike in-service marines and soldiers aren't on orders to be optomistic about the mission on television). I don't know about you, but I've talked to way more than one soldier or marine. I've talked bus loads of them when I met them in Crawford protesting the Bush administration and its policies. I've also talked to many in Washington at the march, and what they say definetly deviates from your arguement. My brother is a serving Marine, and lets just say that he would call you a political panzy that is defending a bunch of oil-drugged business men who have exploited the brave fighting men and women of our armed forces for personal gain.
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Old 05-09-2006, 04:55 PM   #28 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katczinsky
Jefferson, not only do you not quote soldiers, but you group them all into a single ideology just because of one soldier. Have you talked to more than one of them? Have you talked to the veterans (which, unlike in-service marines and soldiers aren't on orders to be optomistic about the mission on television). I don't know about you, but I've talked to way more than one soldier or marine. I've talked bus loads of them when I met them in Crawford protesting the Bush administration and its policies. I've also talked to many in Washington at the march, and what they say definetly deviates from your arguement. My brother is a serving Marine, and lets just say that he would call you a political panzy that is defending a bunch of oil-drugged business men who have exploited the brave fighting men and women of our armed forces for personal gain.
Oh stop your crying.

I was making a point to Hevusa that we're NOT being told the whole truth about Iraq from our mainstream media.

Now... let me use one of your tacits: PROVE TO ME YOU'VE MET WITH THESE PEOPLE!!!!!!!!!!!


...and do give Cindy Sheehan a hug, kiss, and pinch on the butt for me.
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Old 05-09-2006, 04:57 PM   #29 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jefferson
That very well could be.

But you should also admit (which I think you do) that that is your "opinion".

http://zogby.com/news/ReadNews.dbm?ID=1075

U.S. Troops in Iraq: 72% Say End War in 2006



Le Moyne College/Zogby Poll shows just one in five troops want to heed Bush call to stay “as long as they are needed”
While 58% say mission is clear, 42% say U.S. role is hazy
Plurality believes Iraqi insurgents are mostly homegrown
Almost 90% think war is retaliation for Saddam’s role in 9/11, most don’t blame Iraqi public for insurgent attacks
Majority of troops oppose use of harsh prisoner interrogation
Plurality of troops pleased with their armor and equipment
An overwhelming majority of 72% of American troops serving in Iraq think the U.S. should exit the country within the next year, and more than one in four say the troops should leave immediately, a new Le Moyne College/Zogby International survey shows.

The poll, conducted in conjunction with Le Moyne College’s Center for Peace and Global Studies, showed that 29% of the respondents, serving in various branches of the armed forces, said the U.S. should leave Iraq “immediately,” while another 22% said they should leave in the next six months. Another 21% said troops should be out between six and 12 months, while 23% said they should stay “as long as they are needed.”

Different branches had quite different sentiments on the question, the poll shows. While 89% of reserves and 82% of those in the National Guard said the U.S. should leave Iraq within a year, 58% of Marines think so. Seven in ten of those in the regular Army thought the U.S. should leave Iraq in the next year. Moreover, about three-quarters of those in National Guard and Reserve units favor withdrawal within six months, just 15% of Marines felt that way. About half of those in the regular Army favored withdrawal from Iraq in the next six months.

The troops have drawn different conclusions about fellow citizens back home. Asked why they think some Americans favor rapid U.S. troop withdrawal from Iraq, 37% of troops serving there said those Americans are unpatriotic, while 20% believe people back home don’t believe a continued occupation will work. Another 16% said they believe those favoring a quick withdrawal do so because they oppose the use of the military in a pre-emptive war, while 15% said they do not believe those Americans understand the need for the U.S. troops in Iraq.

The wide-ranging poll also shows that 58% of those serving in country say the U.S. mission in Iraq is clear in their minds, while 42% said it is either somewhat or very unclear to them, that they have no understanding of it at all, or are unsure. While 85% said the U.S. mission is mainly “to retaliate for Saddam’s role in the 9-11 attacks,” 77% said they also believe the main or a major reason for the war was “to stop Saddam from protecting al Qaeda in Iraq.”

“Ninety-three percent said that removing weapons of mass destruction is not a reason for U.S. troops being there,” said Pollster John Zogby, President and CEO of Zogby International. “Instead, that initial rationale went by the wayside and, in the minds of 68% of the troops, the real mission became to remove Saddam Hussein.” Just 24% said that “establishing a democracy that can be a model for the Arab World" was the main or a major reason for the war. Only small percentages see the mission there as securing oil supplies (11%) or to provide long-term bases for US troops in the region (6%).

The continuing insurgent attacks have not turned U.S. troops against the Iraqi population, the survey shows. More than 80% said they did not hold a negative view of Iraqis because of those attacks. About two in five see the insurgency as being comprised of discontented Sunnis with very few non-Iraqi helpers. “There appears to be confusion on this,” Zogby said. But, he noted, less than a third think that if non-Iraqi terrorists could be prevented from crossing the border into Iraq, the insurgency would end. A majority of troops (53%) said the U.S. should double both the number of troops and bombing missions in order to control the insurgency.

The survey shows that most U.S. military personnel in-country have a clear sense of right and wrong when it comes to using banned weapons against the enemy, and in interrogation of prisoners. Four in five said they oppose the use of such internationally banned weapons as napalm and white phosphorous. And, even as more photos of prisoner abuse in Iraq surface around the world, 55% said it is not appropriate or standard military conduct to use harsh and threatening methods against insurgent prisoners in order to gain information of military value.

Three quarters of the troops had served multiple tours and had a longer exposure to the conflict: 26% were on their first tour of duty, 45% were on their second tour, and 29% were in Iraq for a third time or more.

A majority of the troops serving in Iraq said they were satisfied with the war provisions from Washington. Just 30% of troops said they think the Department of Defense has failed to provide adequate troop protections, such as body armor, munitions, and armor plating for vehicles like HumVees. Only 35% said basic civil infrastructure in Iraq, including roads, electricity, water service, and health care, has not improved over the past year. Three of every four were male respondents, with 63% under the age of 30.

The survey included 944 military respondents interviewed at several undisclosed locations throughout Iraq. The names of the specific locations and specific personnel who conducted the survey are being withheld for security purposes. Surveys were conducted face-to-face using random sampling techniques. The margin of error for the survey, conducted Jan. 18 through Feb. 14, 2006, is +/- 3.3 percentage points.

(2/28/2006)
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Old 05-09-2006, 05:02 PM   #30 (permalink)
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944 Military Respondents speak for the entire American military? Interesting.

Now... I'm not disagreeing that the majority of soldiers want us out of Iraq. But that's not I was ever disagreeing with in the first place.

Besides, even if you were in the Battle of the Bulge, and had been away from your wife and kids for 6 months, you would want to go home too. That's why the military doesn't operate on opinion polls.
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