Defending the Truth

hkbajwa · 02-14-2007, 03:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tadpole256

Big talk from a third world shithole...

hahahahaha.. yeah so fine i let my testosterone take off a little..

Anyhow let me put things in context. I was responding to a post regarding the inevitable defeat and conquest of Pakistan by India if it were not for US support.

My reply was ( albeit strongly worded ) merely a statement of simple facts that illustrate how Pakistan's existence is CERTAINLY NOT subject to continued US support.

Apart from nuclear capability, one of the world's largest standing armies, innumerable indigenous resources (world's largest gas field), excellent relations with China and the middle east, Pakistan is increasingly sorting out its internal problems. Already we have a media flourishing, our telecom capability is fast approaching that of the US and BEST OF ALL, we are workign out our shit with India.

There is NO WAY india would attack us anyways considering that instability in Pakistan will INEVITABLY lead to instability in India.

And i got angry because of this ridiculous demand for gratitude to the US for ensuring our existence. I mean the US has definately assissted Pakistan in MANY VENTURES ( some more feasible than others ) however to assume that our nation would crumble without the mighty US is just plain hubris.

tadpole256 · 02-14-2007, 05:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by garysher

I have to agree here... I think we invaded the wrong 'stan'. 90% of Afghanistan's problems stem from Pakistan... Pakistan can't complain about anyone elses corruption until they clean up their own.

>>>>>>>>>>>>

Pakistan is the most powerful military force in the country with a standing army of one million. It's also a nuclear power

It would be a mistake to think the US, or anyone else , could stroll in a la Afghanistan

1) I would not say we 'strolled' into Afghanistan. 2) I never said it would be easy, but sometimes the easy thing is not the right thing.

tadpole256 · 02-14-2007, 05:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hkbajwa

Well i have to agree there too. Pakistan is woefully corrupt, infiltrated by extremist elements at certain levels and a downright crappy nation in many respects.

But i hardly think it's fair to lay all the blame of afghnistan on Pakistan.

As you may remember, Zia ul Haq's military dictatorhsip was funded and supported by the US government, inspite of the fact that he raped the nation, crushed free speech, infused fundamentalist propoganda into our very school curriculum, gave authoritative powers to the mullahs through the Hudood Ordinance, eliminated all political consciousness in the population, and basically took pakistan back several decades in terms of development.

Why did the US support his cruel regime? The answer is the war in afghanistan. When the Soviets invaded, the US found a pliable general in Zia, and used him to establish training camps, supply ammunition and fund the Mujahedin. This is where OBL came from. THis is also where the Taliban came from.

Why did they have to use the radical muslims to fight this fight. Well because the atheistic nature of communism was such an anathema to the mullahs in Pakistan ( who had just been through a socialist government at the time) that they were the only ones willing to give their lives.

SO technically in the interest of defeating COMMUNISM, the US inadvertently funded the very movement that is causing them huge problems NOW.

I feel embarassed to admit that a pakistani leader was the US's bitch.. but greed will make a bitch of anyone, and Zia was greedy for money and power.

Anyhow, to say that pakistan is the main cause of problems in afghnistan is false in two ways:

1) Firstly, the funding, training, arming and deployment of the taliban ( then known as mujahedin) was done at the behest of the US and with US MONEY and US ARMS.
2) Pakistan suffers more than any other nation (other than afghanistan itself) from unrest in afghanistan. Pakistan currently supports the WORLD LARGEST REFUGEE POPULATION. More than 3 million afghani REFUGEES live in pakistan.. not immigrants, not working people, not positive influences, but REFUGEES who have no assets, very little or no skill, and no money. FOrget Pakistan handling these people.. can you imagine how the US would fare if it suddenly had to tackle 3 million refugees. They are a HUGE burden.

As you very rightly have stated, Pakistan is a thrid world nation. Exactly what interest would a third world nation have in creating more refugees to take care of?

Musharraf has done everything he can to keep the afghans on their side of the border including military offensives in the Waziristan region. Pakistan in any case does not have great relations with Kabul, and afghnistan has no strategic interest for Pakistan.

I don't get where you have the idea that 90% of afghani problems stem from pakistan. That is quite simply not true. Pakistan is helping the US in the fight in afghanistan, and anything pkaistan may have done in the past was a direct order of the US.

I just spent a year in Afghanistan, and I have been to Pakistan, and I can say with a good deal of authority that Pakistan certainly isn't "helping". The Pakistani OSI is the most corrupt agency of any government in the region, and is directly supporting the Afghan insurgency. It's ridiculous. Where to the terrorists come from? Pakistan. Where do they flee to? Pakistan. Who magically can't stop 150 known Taliban from crossing the border into Afghanistan right near their own border control point? Pakistan. Pakistan's help in the effort in Afghanistan is on paper only. There is no sincerity in Pakistan's actions. As for the refugees, Pakistan does not keep them out of pure intention either, they keep them for the huge amount of money the global community pays Pakistan to allow them to stay. How much of that money actually makes it way to the refugees? Very little.

hkbajwa · 02-15-2007, 04:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tadpole256

I just spent a year in Afghanistan, and I have been to Pakistan, and I can say with a good deal of authority that Pakistan certainly isn't "helping". The Pakistani OSI is the most corrupt agency of any government in the region, and is directly supporting the Afghan insurgency. It's ridiculous. Where to the terrorists come from? Pakistan. Where do they flee to? Pakistan. Who magically can't stop 150 known Taliban from crossing the border into Afghanistan right near their own border control point? Pakistan. Pakistan's help in the effort in Afghanistan is on paper only. There is no sincerity in Pakistan's actions. As for the refugees, Pakistan does not keep them out of pure intention either, they keep them for the huge amount of money the global community pays Pakistan to allow them to stay. How much of that money actually makes it way to the refugees? Very little.

Yeah i suppose my eyes are clouded by a lot of the propoganda still spewed. For instance nobody really dares mess with the ISI i'll admit.

However you also need to understand the fragmentation of Pakistani society.

I am a Punjabi. THe tribes that border Afghanistan are all Pushtun and Balochi. FOr many years now the Pushtun have wished independence fromt he Pakistani nation ( of course no government wants to give them that .. several reason like the Gwadar port and Sui gas field ). Anyhow there has always been conflict between the Government ( dominated by Punjabis, owing to the fact that they are the majority of the total population ) and the Balochis and Pushtuns.

Waziristan where most of the Taliban hang out is only nominally in the control of the government. These areas truly are ruled by the tribal elders. These areas are denoted as Federally Administered Tribal Areas. The government has continously tried to enforce its writ there but its jusdt not happening.

Secondly, the religious right movement in pakistan is dominated by the Pushtuns. Many sit in government an d bureaucratic posts. No matter how strong a leader, Musharraf cannot set the agenda for all the powerful individuals in Pakistan. SOme individuals sympathize with the Taliban and support them covertly.

i don't think it is correct to say that the help is on paper only. Fact is that Pakistan is so fragmented and the Pushtun feel more loyalty towards the Taliban ( who are pushtun ) so they will even openly take up arms against he Pakistani government for the sake of their afghani brethren.

It's not easy for Musharraf, and it is made even worse by the fact that islamabad and Kabul have crappy relations ANYWAYS.

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