We now know who the Bush Administration and the Republicans take care of

gmeyers1944 · 03-13-2007, 12:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tyreay

It does mean coexist. I am a Humanist and that is what it is all about for me. You can claim the Islamics want this but in the same paragraph you display alot of the same traits as them. Do you side with the facist radical Christian religions(not that all Christian religions are facist)? Like it or not they are contributing to the unrest in the world and giving the Islamics a reason to be pissed. You talk about what the Islamics want. Bush's beliefs are also a good example of the same thing. Forcing democracy on others because you believe God spoke to you and told you to go to war in Iraq is reason enough I think. Maybe you don't realize that ecomomic domination is the goal of Bush and his cronies which he is doing by brainwashing some of the Christians of this world.
I am not against religions at all. I would like to see Humanism applied while allowing each to keep thier religion. It is when people wage war over their core beliefs that religions fail. Fighting over who God is rightous and real is totally assinine. This and the almighty dollar are really what it comes down.
This is America and we each are entitled to our own opinion. Or do you think we should just follow our almighty leader in his beliefs and not have an opinion of our own?

Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God'. - Jesus (Matt 19:23-24)

Des this make Bush and Cheney the saviors of the Christian religions? I don't think so. COEXIST!

What are these traits that you say that I display?

tyreay · 03-13-2007, 02:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gmeyers1944

What are these traits that you say that I display?

Your non-understanding of way the Islamics feel is really the key. I think as Americans it is up to us to be progressive in our thought. Pointing out how the terrorists feel and claiming all Islamics feel that way is a common misconception and is used all the time, by the neos and by those who would claim our actions are just.
There are millions of peaceful Isamics in the world yet you don't mention them at all. It is just 'the Islamics' for you. This is half the reason more and more Islamics are turning to the beliefs of the more radical sects. Fuel for the fire.

gmeyers1944 · 03-13-2007, 07:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tyreay

It does mean coexist. I am a Humanist and that is what it is all about for me. You can claim the Islamics want this but in the same paragraph you display alot of the same traits as them.
I AM NOT AT ALL LIKE ISLAMICS. THEY SPREAD ISLAM BY THE SWORD. IF YOU CONVERT, YOU LIVE; IF YOU DON'T CONVERT, YOU DIE. I AM A BORN AGAIN CHRISTIAN. BECAUSE OF THAT, I WANT TO SHARE MY FAITH WITH OTHERS SO THEY CAN ALSO EXPERIENCE THE JOY OF CHRIST. I HAVE WITNESSED TO OTHERS OF MY FAITH BUT HAVE NOT AND WOULD NOT EVEN THINK OF KILLING ANYONE WHO REFUSES CHRIST.
Do you side with the facist radical Christian religions(not that all Christian religions are facist)? Like it or not they are contributing to the unrest in the world and giving the Islamics a reason to be pissed.
ISLAMICS ARE "PISSED" AT ANY RELIGION OTHER THAN ISLAM. WHEN ANYONE PROFESSES TO BE A CHRISTIAN , JESUS TELLS US HOW WE CAN TELL IF THEY REALLY ARE.
"WHEREFORE BY THEIR FRUITS YE SHALL KNOW THEM " (MATTHEW 7:20 KING JAMES VERSION)
You talk about what the Islamics want. Bush's beliefs are also a good example of the same thing. Forcing democracy on others because you believe God spoke to you and told you to go to war in Iraq is reason enough I think. I Maybe you don't realize that ecomomic domination is the goal of Bush and his cronies which he is doing by brainwashing some of the Christians of this world.
I WOULD LIKE YOU TO PROVIDE SOME PROOF TO ME OF THESE CHARGES. DON'T GIVE ME SOME LEFT WING KOOK SOURCE LIKE MOVE-ON

Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God'. - Jesus (Matt 19:23-24)

Des this make Bush and Cheney the saviors of the Christian religions? I don't think so. COEXIST!

JESUS DOES NOT GEORGE W BUSH OR DICK CHENEY TO SAVE CHRISTIANS

KnightOfSappho · 03-13-2007, 07:53 PM

GMeyers, certainly you must recognize that not all Christians truly follow the teachings of Christ. May it also be known that not all Muslims follow their proper teachings?

It wasn't that long ago, in the scope of time, that Christians were forcing conversion at the point of a sword.

tyreay · 03-13-2007, 07:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gmeyers1944

JESUS DOES NOT GEORGE W BUSH OR DICK CHENEY TO SAVE CHRISTIANS

The proof is in your own post.

I'll say it again....there are millions of peaceful Islamics, yet you still insist on grouping them together. Get it?

gmeyers1944 · 03-14-2007, 10:32 PM

I meant to say that Jesus does not NEED George W Bush or Dick Cheney to save Christians

hkbajwa · 03-15-2007, 06:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gmeyers1944

Just curious about the combination of religious symbols and letters at the bottom of your postings. Is it supposed to mean coexist? It took a while but I believe that is what you mean. I have news for you. You have the Islamic crescent standing for c in coexist. They do not want to coexist. They want to do one of two things. If they fail the first, then they will try to do the second. The first is to convert the world to Islam. The second is to KILL ALL THOSE WHO WILL NOT CONVERT. WAKE UP AND SMELL THE COFFEE.

Well thankyou very much for ascribing fictitious motives to me. I happen to be a muslim. Am i trying to convert you? Am i threatening dire consequences if you don't?

What you are expressing is the paranoia of ignorance. I am a muslim living in a muslim country and i am certianly more qualified to speak of "muslim" motives. So what i am going to do is to give you a little crash course. I would advise you to listen, as your opinion don't make a fig of a difference to me, but it would certianly expand YOUR horizons if you removed at least one of your prejudices.

Islam is divided into 73 sects. 1.2 billion people in this world nominally follow one of these 73 sects. Muslims exist in difeerent countries, different regions, different cultures and have different histories.

A Turk and an indionesian may both be muslim, but that is about as far as the similarity goes. Turks have a different culture, history, traditions, ideals, preferences, climatic conditions and status in the world community from the Indonesians. They are DIFFERENT. They have different goals, different desires, different requirements.

To ascribe one single set of motives to ALL muslims across the planet is actually the most ignorant type of prejudice. It is not humanly POSSIBLE that they agree on a single set of objectives. The fact that there are 73 different sects and sectarian violence should give you an idea of the lack of agreement.

You are right that there are SOME elements in "muslim" soceity that espouse the intolerant violent views that you are ascribing to ALL muslims. But they are just as representative of the average muslim as is the KKK of the average american.

I happen to belong to the Ahmedi sect of Islam. I call myself ahmedi because it is the religion i was born into, but in practical terms i would call myself a "humanistic muslim". Anyhow a BASIC TENET of the Ahmedi creed is COMPLETE NON-VIOLENCE.

Ahmedis are instructed to spread their religion through Example and Dialogue. We are under NO CIRUCMSTANCES allowed to resort to violence int he name of religion. There is only ONE sort of Jihad permitted, and that is the Jihad of the PEN. The Jihad of the Sword (violent Jihad) is forbidden.

Roughly 200 million people are ahmedi muslims spread over 5 continents. So right there 200 million muslims DO NOT conform to your prejudice.

Aside from this particular sect of Islam we have muslim GOVERNMENTS that do not conform to your prejudiced view. Turkey, Indonesia and Malaysia are progressive states with a mostly muslim population, that have a secular form of government. They are not guilty of violence against non-muslims and indeed Malaysia and Indonesia have LARGE NON-MUSLIM populations living side by side with the muslim population.

From a purely theological point of view i can also tell you that Islam is the only religion that in its religious text accord non-muslims the same social rights as non-muslims. While muslims have to pay tax described as Zakat, non-mulims have to pay tax called Jizya. The payment of tax in PRINCIPLE is meant to ensure that muslims have no reason to discriminate against non-muslims (after all they are tax payers and thus equal citizens)

Anyhow the fact that discrimination exists in many muslim countries (indeed even institutionalized in some) is an indication of the social conditions of the nations. sometimes 'islam" is used as a justification for contrary practices, but then again the Patriot Act is a REDUCTION of pesonal freedom meant to PROTECT personal freedom ( I hope you get the analogy). I mean discrimination exists in many shapes and forms in many places.. For instance the Hutus in Rwanda being disrciminated aginst by Tutsis.

To state that muslims do not want peaceful coexistence is actually just as harmful as saying that YOU don't want peaceful coexistence. Except the way you do it, you place the blame ont he others, while acting the exact same way as them.

the VAST MAJORITY of muslims DO want peaceful coexistence. To claim the contrary is plain wrong and prejudiced and unless you can rid yourself of this prejudice you will in your OWN actions ensure that peaceful coesitence remains a distant dream.

tyreay · 03-15-2007, 07:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hkbajwa

Well thankyou very much for ascribing fictitious motives to me. I happen to be a muslim. Am i trying to convert you? Am i threatening dire consequences if you don't?

What you are expressing is the paranoia of ignorance. I am a muslim living in a muslim country and i am certianly more qualified to speak of "muslim" motives. So what i am going to do is to give you a little crash course. I would advise you to listen, as your opinion don't make a fig of a difference to me, but it would certianly expand YOUR horizons if you removed at least one of your prejudices.

Islam is divided into 73 sects. 1.2 billion people in this world nominally follow one of these 73 sects. Muslims exist in difeerent countries, different regions, different cultures and have different histories.

A Turk and an indionesian may both be muslim, but that is about as far as the similarity goes. Turks have a different culture, history, traditions, ideals, preferences, climatic conditions and status in the world community from the Indonesians. They are DIFFERENT. They have different goals, different desires, different requirements.

To ascribe one single set of motives to ALL muslims across the planet is actually the most ignorant type of prejudice. It is not humanly POSSIBLE that they agree on a single set of objectives. The fact that there are 73 different sects and sectarian violence should give you an idea of the lack of agreement.

You are right that there are SOME elements in "muslim" soceity that espouse the intolerant violent views that you are ascribing to ALL muslims. But they are just as representative of the average muslim as is the KKK of the average american.

I happen to belong to the Ahmedi sect of Islam. I call myself ahmedi because it is the religion i was born into, but in practical terms i would call myself a "humanistic muslim". Anyhow a BASIC TENET of the Ahmedi creed is COMPLETE NON-VIOLENCE.

Ahmedis are instructed to spread their religion through Example and Dialogue. We are under NO CIRUCMSTANCES allowed to resort to violence int he name of religion. There is only ONE sort of Jihad permitted, and that is the Jihad of the PEN. The Jihad of the Sword (violent Jihad) is forbidden.

Roughly 200 million people are ahmedi muslims spread over 5 continents. So right there 200 million muslims DO NOT conform to your prejudice.

Aside from this particular sect of Islam we have muslim GOVERNMENTS that do not conform to your prejudiced view. Turkey, Indonesia and Malaysia are progressive states with a mostly muslim population, that have a secular form of government. They are not guilty of violence against non-muslims and indeed Malaysia and Indonesia have LARGE NON-MUSLIM populations living side by side with the muslim population.

From a purely theological point of view i can also tell you that Islam is the only religion that in its religious text accord non-muslims the same social rights as non-muslims. While muslims have to pay tax described as Zakat, non-mulims have to pay tax called Jizya. The payment of tax in PRINCIPLE is meant to ensure that muslims have no reason to discriminate against non-muslims (after all they are tax payers and thus equal citizens)

Anyhow the fact that discrimination exists in many muslim countries (indeed even institutionalized in some) is an indication of the social conditions of the nations. sometimes 'islam" is used as a justification for contrary practices, but then again the Patriot Act is a REDUCTION of pesonal freedom meant to PROTECT personal freedom ( I hope you get the analogy). I mean discrimination exists in many shapes and forms in many places.. For instance the Hutus in Rwanda being disrciminated aginst by Tutsis.

To state that muslims do not want peaceful coexistence is actually just as harmful as saying that YOU don't want peaceful coexistence. Except the way you do it, you place the blame ont he others, while acting the exact same way as them.

the VAST MAJORITY of muslims DO want peaceful coexistence. To claim the contrary is plain wrong and prejudiced and unless you can rid yourself of this prejudice you will in your OWN actions ensure that peaceful coesitence remains a distant dream.

Here Here!

baloney_detector · 03-15-2007, 08:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hkbajwa

...the VAST MAJORITY of muslims DO want peaceful coexistence...

In my opinion, and at this point in time, they all need to stand up and be heard.

It's unfortunate that all too often in the West it seems that those voices, such as your voice, are drowned out by the screams and shouts of extremists.

tristanrobin · 03-15-2007, 08:46 AM

hkbajwa, that was a terrific little essay - thanks for posting