When

BKT · 04-24-2007, 04:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by indago

There are no "FRONTLINES" in the "War On Terror"...

So that would mean that anybody and everybody is a suspect? Isnt that a bit vague...in the sense that anyone which does not conform to a certain way of thinking or goes against accepted norms is a terrorist?

hkbajwa · 04-25-2007, 02:24 AM

hahahaha.. BKT ... Welcome to the board jiggar.

Anyhoo, ladies and gentlemen may i present to you my arch enemy in debate buddy in real life Mr. B to KT.

Tad, i understand that you have an intimate knowledge of the ground situation in Afghanistan. However what you do NOT have is an insider's knowledge of the Pakistan Government. I can assure you that BKT does.

Your perception of the Pak-afghan relationship is from a different perspective where it is understandable that Pakistan comes across as the badguy. But often actions are not perceived as they are intended, ESPECIALLY when u got bullets flying about your head.

you have to understand that the Pak-Afghan relationship has been complex. Pakistan has gone from arming and supporting the Taliban (which took considerable propoganda and brainwashing of the population to implement) at the behest of the american government. later on Pakistan was instructed to do a 180 degree turn (even though the relationship was decades old) and work against the taliban.

This has NOT been an easy feat. In fact it was a huge accomplishment that Musharraf could manage to do so without causing internal revolt. But it has not been without its repercussions. The pakistani government does NOT have complete control over the NWFP and Balochistan. These provinces are (for all intents and purposes) ruled by pro-taliban tribal and religious leaders. The NWFP government is ruled by the MMA (an alliance of religious parties) and Balochistan - well it was run by Nawab Bugti and other tribal leaders who had a big ace up their sleeve. They constantly attacked and sabotaged the Sui gas fields ( Pakistan's main fossil fuel resource).

the government has been dealing with the aspirations of indepedence of the Pushtuns and the Balochis for decades now (since before the Soviet invasion of afghanistan).

I know it looks like there is a concerted effort on behalf of the government, but what you see and feel is merely the inability of the government to enforce its writ in these areas.

Now you may insist that it is possible if only the effort is great enough.. but i would challenge that. the government CAN NOT be too heavy handed in these areas because the people of these areas are :
1) A powerbase for religous politicians
2) Supported by the religious right

To take such overt and heavy handed action (because only a heavy handed action can enforce the government's writ in these areas.. unfortunately there is no "soft approach" that works.) may lead to severe internal clashes and instability.. and you cannot expect the pakistani government to risk that.

Karzai and Musharraf are pointing fingers constantly. It is not a favorable situation, but it is also not entirely the fault of the Pakistani government.

I'm sorry you feel this way about Pakistan, but remember this.. It is NOT a backwater country.. Sure it has its problems, but those are the result of a complex mixture of circumstances. NOT because it is an evil barbarian nation.

You cannot blame BKt for feeling offended at that accusation. I mean heck, you wouldn't like it if i called all american's uneducated, and all republican racist white pigs.. firstly because its not true and secondly because.. well it diminishes YOU because you are a US citizen proud of your heritage.

So lets have a clean fight.. shall we, gentlemen?

BKT · 04-26-2007, 07:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hkbajwa

hahahaha.. BKT ... Welcome to the board jiggar.

Anyhoo, ladies and gentlemen may i present to you my arch enemy in debate buddy in real life Mr. B to KT.

Tad, i understand that you have an intimate knowledge of the ground situation in Afghanistan. However what you do NOT have is an insider's knowledge of the Pakistan Government. I can assure you that BKT does.

Your perception of the Pak-afghan relationship is from a different perspective where it is understandable that Pakistan comes across as the badguy. But often actions are not perceived as they are intended, ESPECIALLY when u got bullets flying about your head.

you have to understand that the Pak-Afghan relationship has been complex. Pakistan has gone from arming and supporting the Taliban (which took considerable propoganda and brainwashing of the population to implement) at the behest of the american government. later on Pakistan was instructed to do a 180 degree turn (even though the relationship was decades old) and work against the taliban.

This has NOT been an easy feat. In fact it was a huge accomplishment that Musharraf could manage to do so without causing internal revolt. But it has not been without its repercussions. The pakistani government does NOT have complete control over the NWFP and Balochistan. These provinces are (for all intents and purposes) ruled by pro-taliban tribal and religious leaders. The NWFP government is ruled by the MMA (an alliance of religious parties) and Balochistan - well it was run by Nawab Bugti and other tribal leaders who had a big ace up their sleeve. They constantly attacked and sabotaged the Sui gas fields ( Pakistan's main fossil fuel resource).

the government has been dealing with the aspirations of indepedence of the Pushtuns and the Balochis for decades now (since before the Soviet invasion of afghanistan).

I know it looks like there is a concerted effort on behalf of the government, but what you see and feel is merely the inability of the government to enforce its writ in these areas.

Now you may insist that it is possible if only the effort is great enough.. but i would challenge that. the government CAN NOT be too heavy handed in these areas because the people of these areas are :
1) A powerbase for religous politicians
2) Supported by the religious right

To take such overt and heavy handed action (because only a heavy handed action can enforce the government's writ in these areas.. unfortunately there is no "soft approach" that works.) may lead to severe internal clashes and instability.. and you cannot expect the pakistani government to risk that.

Karzai and Musharraf are pointing fingers constantly. It is not a favorable situation, but it is also not entirely the fault of the Pakistani government.

I'm sorry you feel this way about Pakistan, but remember this.. It is NOT a backwater country.. Sure it has its problems, but those are the result of a complex mixture of circumstances. NOT because it is an evil barbarian nation.

You cannot blame BKt for feeling offended at that accusation. I mean heck, you wouldn't like it if i called all american's uneducated, and all republican racist white pigs.. firstly because its not true and secondly because.. well it diminishes YOU because you are a US citizen proud of your heritage.

So lets have a clean fight.. shall we, gentlemen?

Hello Mr. bajwa.

Nicely put...One or two additions i would like to make here though. First, Pakistan has been looking after Afghan Refugees for the past 25 years after the Russian invasion. It has been recorded as the largest refugee group to reside in any country ever.
Second, 80% of Afghanistan is of Pashtun background while the current ruling government of Afghanistan constitues the 20% Northern Alliance that is of Central Asian background. Both groups have never gotten along too well and while the Northern Alliance is more pro India, the Pashtuns due to ethnic closeness to Pakistan's Western half have been closer to us. When the US came into Afghanistan, they setup a government that is not representative of the majority population thereby inviting revolt from the Pashtuns. That is the main reason for the resurgance of the Taliban who are supported by the Pashtuns.
I hold no ill feelings against the US (im all for removing the Taliban from Afghanistan as it helps us as well) but one should not bite the hand that feeds you.

tadpole256 · 04-27-2007, 07:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BKT

First, I joined this discussion borad because Tadpole was saying wrong things about my country. I believe the words he used were 'ignorant' and 'offensive'. As if the rest of the world loves tadpole saying offensive things about them. I aint a US hater or anything, just dont like my country being accused for something that isnt the truth.

Second, TAdpole, what exactly is the frontlines? Because as per my understanding of the whole war in Afghanistan (and this i base on my proximity to the country in terms of ethnicity and the fact that i live only 4 hours away from Kabul), the US Army is sitting in an aircraft carrier from where they send out planes to bomb the place. The only ground forces there are are the ones that go out on patrols and kill off the remaining talibans. A frontline exists when two armies of same strength are facing each other and fighting. What you did was throw bombs on the place, wipe out as many people as you could, and then go in and clean up and remaining 'EVIL ONES'. U didnt see battle, u were just a janitor! And where do u think your great Army gets its supplies from. Yup, the backwater country called Pakistan. And u know something, we laugh at u lot cause u sell your weapons for dope! U know wat im talking about...and the proof is also there. Care to see photos?
So in a nutshell, its easy to rant and rave about how evil we are, but atleast hear the other side of the story before you start making untrue remarks about other countries.

Wow... You are so full of shit I can smell it around the world...

1) The U.S. Army does not deploy on Aircraft Carriers, that's the Navy.

2) There are more than 20,000 soldiers fighting in Afghanistan and working hard to rebuild it, all Pakistan has done with any sincerity is to support the Taliban and make our efforts more difficult. There is a reason most Afghans despise Pakistan...

3) Don't you tell me I didn't see battle... I was wounded in combat you ignorant bastard.

4) The only supplies we get from Pakistan are those we re-distribute to the Afghans. And even then we have to deal with Pakistani corruption and theft...

5) I'd love to see some photos...

6) I know the truth. I was there. I have been to Pakistan, I spent more than a year in Afghanistan, I know the truth. You sir are a liar... Plain and simple.

BKT · 04-28-2007, 07:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tadpole256

Wow... You are so full of shit I can smell it around the world...

1) The U.S. Army does not deploy on Aircraft Carriers, that's the Navy.

2) There are more than 20,000 soldiers fighting in Afghanistan and working hard to rebuild it, all Pakistan has done with any sincerity is to support the Taliban and make our efforts more difficult. There is a reason most Afghans despise Pakistan...

3) Don't you tell me I didn't see battle... I was wounded in combat you ignorant bastard.

4) The only supplies we get from Pakistan are those we re-distribute to the Afghans. And even then we have to deal with Pakistani corruption and theft...

5) I'd love to see some photos...

6) I know the truth. I was there. I have been to Pakistan, I spent more than a year in Afghanistan, I know the truth. You sir are a liar... Plain and simple.

What u got shot in the ass by a 12 year old kid who was indoctrinated with the militant brand of Islam incorporated into the Afghan islamic school system by the US in order to fight the Russians, while u were standing on a roof top in the green zone having a beer, chatting up some german social worker. Hahahahahaha!!! U poor man....who the fuck told u to come here in the first place and get shot up, and spend the rest of ur miserable life in ur shot hole town somewhere in Texas, spreading hate shit all over the internet in order to get some attention.

U sir...are a washed up angry little man and i honestly dont give a shit if u think im a liar! Hell, u couldnt and still cant make a difference anyways....

Scared?

tyreay · 04-28-2007, 09:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BKT

What u got shot in the ass by a 12 year old kid who was indoctrinated with the militant brand of Islam incorporated into the Afghan islamic school system by the US in order to fight the Russians, while u were standing on a roof top in the green zone having a beer, chatting up some german social worker. Hahahahahaha!!! U poor man....who the fuck told u to come here in the first place and get shot up, and spend the rest of ur miserable life in ur shot hole town somewhere in Texas, spreading hate shit all over the internet in order to get some attention.

U sir...are a washed up angry little man and i honestly dont give a shit if u think im a liar! Hell, u couldnt and still cant make a difference anyways....

Scared?

First of all, You are totally clueless as to what type of action tad has seen.
He shared his story with us when it happened and I went his blog to look at the vehicle that he was in when it got shot up. It was nothing like the scenario you have provided. You see, Tad took orders and did what he was ordered to do even when he is totally against this war. He feels a need to protect what is dear to him and our President's current choices have nothing to do with that need. He has spoken out against Bush's decisions many times and if you had actually taken the time to gain some knowledge, by reviewing his posts, you'd know that. It called research.
Secondly, Our troops are not the ones that make the decisions. They are going were they are told and taking orders. Our men and women are risking thier lives to protect there families, and a lot of them have come to the conclusion that this war is not the right course of action for our country. You sound like you think all American's back the decisions made by our Administration. Alot of Americans are working towards impeaching Bush and Cheney and withdrawing our troops(me included). Then someone like you posts crap like this, showing that maybe not all of Bush's assumptions are not pure paranoia. YOU are part of the problem with this world. Maybe you should take a long look at yourself.
Thirdly, you act like you know what you are talking about when it is apparent you are a fiction writer. You prove to everyone you do write fiction and then expect to be taken seriously, in the rest of your post?
Explain to us, tough guy, what you have done for the world. What, sit on your ass, writing fiction and then claim to know what you are talking about?
In my opinon you have to be pretty sorry to even write such stupidity. You have made it quite apparent that you are the washed up little man, with nothing better to do than sit on your ass and write such garbage.
Personal attacks on members of our military just shows how very little you do know about the workings of the American mind. You would do much better, and reach more people, if you used well thought out arguements and didn't make yourself sound like a raving fool who posts fiction. Just my personal opinion but I bet most would agree.
I certainly hope you can change your lousy out look and contribute something constructive in life. Have a good day.

indago · 04-29-2007, 12:31 AM

indago wrote:

Quote:

There are no "FRONTLINES" in the "War On Terror"...

BKT, then, wrote:

Quote:

So that would mean that anybody and everybody is a suspect? Isnt that a bit vague...in the sense that anyone which does not conform to a certain way of thinking or goes against accepted norms is a terrorist?

That sounds like paranoia to me...

billybobama · 04-29-2007, 02:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by garysher

If we just pull out Iraq will become a training ground for Al Qaeda, funded by Iran

Oh great Swammy. Where did you get your Crystal Ball?

Happy · 04-29-2007, 08:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tyreay

First of all, You are totally clueless as to what type of action tad has seen.
He shared his story with us when it happened and I went his blog to look at the vehicle that he was in when it got shot up. It was nothing like the scenario you have provided. You see, Tad took orders and did what he was ordered to do even when he is totally against this war. He feels a need to protect what is dear to him and our President's current choices have nothing to do with that need. He has spoken out against Bush's decisions many times and if you had actually taken the time to gain some knowledge, by reviewing his posts, you'd know that. It called research.
Secondly, Our troops are not the ones that make the decisions. They are going were they are told and taking orders. Our men and women are risking thier lives to protect there families, and a lot of them have come to the conclusion that this war is not the right course of action for our country. You sound like you think all American's back the decisions made by our Administration. Alot of Americans are working towards impeaching Bush and Cheney and withdrawing our troops(me included). Then someone like you posts crap like this, showing that maybe not all of Bush's assumptions are not pure paranoia. YOU are part of the problem with this world. Maybe you should take a long look at yourself.
Thirdly, you act like you know what you are talking about when it is apparent you are a fiction writer. You prove to everyone you do write fiction and then expect to be taken seriously, in the rest of your post?
Explain to us, tough guy, what you have done for the world. What, sit on your ass, writing fiction and then claim to know what you are talking about?
In my opinon you have to be pretty sorry to even write such stupidity. You have made it quite apparent that you are the washed up little man, with nothing better to do than sit on your ass and write such garbage.
Personal attacks on members of our military just shows how very little you do know about the workings of the American mind. You would do much better, and reach more people, if you used well thought out arguements and didn't make yourself sound like a raving fool who posts fiction. Just my personal opinion but I bet most would agree.
I certainly hope you can change your lousy out look and contribute something constructive in life. Have a good day.

Well said!
From what I have heard a lot of the British troops feel much the same, they fight for Queen and Country but don't actually agree to the reasoning behind this war!