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God Bless Atheism

Religion What is your take on religion? Do you base your thoughts in life according to your religion? Do you feel that religion should be kept out of Government and Politics?

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Old 08-08-2007, 03:53 PM   #51 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by ccvasquez View Post
Okay, so we do agree that Christians can vote for whom they want to - for whatever reason. Yes?
Of course they can, but it would be immoral for them to vote for a candidate because they wish to take religious freedom from others by imposing their own religious rituals, prayers, symbols, etc. on all of society.
The greatest danger to liberty lurks in the insidious encroachment by men of zeal, well-meaning but without understanding.

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Old 08-08-2007, 04:18 PM   #52 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by ccvasquez View Post
This is way off topic, but I don't belive "the people" have ever had any shred of power in any communist state.
I'm just wondering if you truly know what communism is.

The people never had power in a communist state because there never was a communist state. "Communist state", itself, is an oxymoron. In a fully developed communist society, the state is abolished.
"If you want to achieve peace of mind and happiness, then have faith; if you want to be a disciple of truth, then search" -- Friedrich Nietzsche

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Old 08-08-2007, 05:21 PM   #53 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by ccvasquez View Post
I agree with you here. But when legislators are passing laws that have moral implications (abortion, fetal stem cell experimentation, pornography), why can't Christians lobby for their preference?
Precisely.

The fundamental flaw in trying to separate Church and State is the risk of subordinating religious views to the views of any other interest group, including secular groups.

If we are going to separate Church and State then we also need to separate homosexuality and state, abortionists and state, gun advocates and state, etc etc.

And of course that is just as ludicrous as expecting voters and legislators to forget about their religious views when they enter the voting booth or the legislative chamber.
Old 08-08-2007, 09:03 PM   #54 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by garysher View Post
Precisely.

The fundamental flaw in trying to separate Church and State is the risk of subordinating religious views to the views of any other interest group, including secular groups.
There is no "flaw" in separating Church and State, it is the only way to guarantee religious freedom.

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If we are going to separate Church and State then we also need to separate homosexuality and state, abortionists and state, gun advocates and state, etc etc.
Exactly, there is no reason for government to regulate homosexuality, either to approve or disapprove, it is simply not government's business. Ditto with abortion. There could be a point when guns cause disorder or chaos in society, so possibly they would come under government review.

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And of course that is just as ludicrous as expecting voters and legislators to forget about their religious views when they enter the voting booth or the legislative chamber.



Voters and legislators don't need to forget their religious views, they just need to remember that everyone doesn't share them and it is not government's business to make everyone share them.
The greatest danger to liberty lurks in the insidious encroachment by men of zeal, well-meaning but without understanding.

--Supreme Court Justice Louis Brandeis
Old 08-08-2007, 09:14 PM   #55 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by OKgrannie View Post
There is no "flaw" in separating Church and State, it is the only way to guarantee religious freedom.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Apparently you didn't read what I wrote so let me repeat it for you here:
The fundamental flaw in trying to separate Church and State is the risk of subordinating religious views to the views of any other interest group, including secular groups.

How would you respond to this?


Exactly, there is no reason for government to regulate homosexuality, either to approve or disapprove, it is simply not government's business. Ditto with abortion. There could be a point when guns cause disorder or chaos in society, so possibly they would come under government review.




Voters and legislators don't need to forget their religious views, they just need to remember that everyone doesn't share them and it is not government's business to make everyone share them.
Doesn't that apply to the views of every special interest group?

Why single out religious groups?
Old 08-09-2007, 08:02 AM   #56 (permalink)
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Our right to worship freely, without government interference, is guaranteed by the First Amendment of the Constitution, and not by God. It is time that Christians reconcile themselves with this fundamental fact.
Who are you arguing with?
Old 08-09-2007, 08:05 AM   #57 (permalink)
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OKgrannie,

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Murder and stealing disrupt order in society which is the only reason to legislate against them.
So, in your opinion, "order in society" is the ultimate good that a government should achieve?
Old 08-09-2007, 08:31 AM   #58 (permalink)
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Katczinsky,

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...In a fully developed communist society, the state is abolished.
That is an utopian dream, not a political system.

The only communism this world has seen is the variety that oppresses and suppresses its citizens. It has happened everywhere it has been tried. It is the source of much misery and evil.
Old 08-09-2007, 11:05 AM   #59 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by garysher View Post
Apparently you didn't read what I wrote so let me repeat it for you here:
The fundamental flaw in trying to separate Church and State is the risk of subordinating religious views to the views of any other interest group, including secular groups.

How would you respond to this?
I repeat, there is NO flaw in separating Church and State. I assume you would like me to respond to the risk of subordinating religious views. Religious views should have no influence over government. There are only two ways that religious groups seek to influence government: 1. They seek to implement their morality, their rituals, their symbols on the whole of society using the force of government, and 2. they seek government money to further their goals. Neither is advantageous for society to support.


Quote:
Doesn't that apply to the views of every special interest group?

Why single out religious groups?

[/quote]

When government gets involved with religious groups, religious freedom is at risk. Freedom of conscience is at risk for everyone. Legislators should also be aware of any interest groups seeking to limit freedom for citizens.
The greatest danger to liberty lurks in the insidious encroachment by men of zeal, well-meaning but without understanding.

--Supreme Court Justice Louis Brandeis
Old 08-09-2007, 11:10 AM   #60 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ccvasquez View Post
OKgrannie,



So, in your opinion, "order in society" is the ultimate good that a government should achieve?
Government also has the goal of establishing justice, and promoting the general welfare. However, injustice in society will eventually lead to chaos in the form of riots, so establishing justice can be said in the end to be maintaining order in society. The same can be said for promoting the general welfare. A quality education system is essential for maintaining our democratic way of life, so it can be said to be maintaining order.
The greatest danger to liberty lurks in the insidious encroachment by men of zeal, well-meaning but without understanding.

--Supreme Court Justice Louis Brandeis
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