Originally Posted by garysher

Are you totally convinced you're right about that?

Originally Posted by fxashun

This is why I can't stand religious debates. Why would someone go through so much trouble to study religion just to try and debunk it?

Originally Posted by Gadgetory

You assumed too which inevitabely leads to error...I did religious study because I believed it and then one day I thought and the thought was...this is clearly a man made invention to suit whatever power had power at the time...

as if I had a choice as a child but to be sent to Catholic School..I did what my parents told me to do and believed what I was taught to believe..like everyone else on earth until the day I actually thought about it and realized none of it made any rational sense at all

Religion succeeds because humans are only partly rational..it uses the part of us that isn't rational

Again stop assuming

Originally Posted by fxashun

I'm not assuming anything. You said you have a degree in theology. You went all the way through school to end up not believing in religion. To each his or her own, but I didn't have to go to school to come to the near the same conclusion.

But I do respect those that do believe in religion enough to let them have their beliefs without harassing them

Originally Posted by Gadgetory

Here is what you said

Originally Posted by fxashun
This is why I can't stand religious debates. Why would someone go through so much trouble to study religion just to try and debunk it?


I didn't go to any trouble at all and you assumed I didn't believe and went to study religion to debunk it when in fact the opposite was true..

So you waited til AFTER you graduated to stop believing in religion? Whatever dude you do your debunk thang.

Why are relgious people in your view given a respect you are not extending to my more secular view. Why do you hold relgion ABOVE my secular view...way to prove me correct on many points..things that we hold flatly wrong in other contexts or at very least not the done thing, are OK when it comes to religion they have an excuse they believe in something..I believe they are wrong so you see I believe something to but never mind about that

Actually there aren't very many people on here strictly arguing FOR any particular religion. But there are plenty people with serious issues toward the bible and Christianity.

This is a DEBATE forum..thereby even a POV you personally don't agree with is allowed..as you are going to respect ONLY the people with religious beliefs I assume you going to continue in contrast to challenge my beliefs thereby by your own definition show me no respect..and thats OK by me because I understand what the word debate means

Originally Posted by Gadgetory

Actually you don't get Ockhams Razor..William Ockham said "Do not multiply entities beyond neccessity." In other words the concept of their being a creator only leads to the query who created the Creator. Its a never ending circle.

And that's a self-evidently stupid question, IMO. That which caused all NEEDS no cause. It's really just that simple. If you want to make it more complex than that, fine. Just don't expect me to go along for that ride -- or to buy in to the notion that existance exists "just because" and has no cause outside itself.

Religious belief isn't even a theory.

Its odd you seem to think everyone but you is changing something in order to fit what they believe.. hence the claim that the TRUTH is somehwre in the middle..it couldn't be you are changing religious belief and the actual written doctrines to suit what you believe because anyone with remote intelligence cannot think anything but the Bible symbolic because what we know about the world now based on scientific theory...you should be saying what YOU believe is somewhere in the middle because truth is many religious people think you are going to hell with me...don't worry everyone has changed what God said to suit what they believe at some point because God can't explain what he means to the people he created even though we are created in his image..God is as stupid as we are in other words.....in other words people create God and their concept of God..

Sure, if you say so. But to me, again, it's very simple and clear that the Bible was meant largely to be symbolic.


I am not saying you have to buy anything but please lets not pretend that the Bible previously thought to be literal is now not literal because of the simple fact science explains what the Bible can't..its a cop out excuse...not to mention wickedly convienient for you all. Now its but God didn';t intend it to be literal merely symbollic and everything done in its name which was based on the literal interpretation of the text is now wrong because well the things done in the name of relgion are so evil we gotta make an excuse.

Who is making excuses. I don't blame religion for some of the people who claim to believe in it. Assholes always get all the press. I used to work in the news media, I know this.

So if its symbollic why did it only recently become so??? And if it was always symbollic why did people honestly believe it wasn't and was in fact literal???Why is God so confusing and why doesn't he just tell everyone what they need to know and then end of all the fighting?? Oh the excuse for this is free will where did God talk about free will in the bible??? Were did this concept come from??? I'll show you where its says we don't have free will

"Only recently became so?" WTF are you talking about? Many people from the get-go clearly understood the inward, symbolic and spiritual meaning of scripture and religious teachings. You seem awfully hung up on the people who didn't or don't think that way.

"28And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. 29For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.30And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified"
Romans 8:28-30 [NIV]

Yeah, some people are pre-destined to be leaders, pathfinders, sages.. whatever.

I don't know if I am right but I think I am but please DO NOT pretend you don't think you are right also or else why hold an opinion if you think it isn't right..people who don't admit this make me chuckle

Originally Posted by mytmouse57

I'm secure enough in what I know to be right to not feel the need to try to just write the whole thing off as a bunch of B.S.
I just find the close-mindedness common to both cynics and fundamentalists to be ironic, that's all.

But as far as anybody being "right?" Well, Hell, we all have a part to play. Perhaps yours is the part of the questioner and agitator. So, in the end, I don't really WANT you to change... nor do I want fundamentalists to change. Like I said, it transcends who is right and who is wrong. Real change can only come when a person decides that's what they want.. not because somebody else pounded it into their head.
And having at different times in my life been both a fundamentalist of sorts and a rather cynical agnostic/atheist... I know enough to know each has to find his own path.

Originally Posted by fxashun

Originally Posted by Gadgetory

"Originally Posted by fxashun
This is why I can't stand religious debates. Why would someone go through so much trouble to study religion just to try and debunk it?"

I realize it may be odd to you but some people study and actually think about what it is they study and come to a conclusion that may not be what they first believed..whacky isn't it..its called being OPEN to change in thought and or belief