Defending the Truth

"the onus is on the believer to prove their case" JohnSA

Granted, Christians have only had a few millennia to compose a single irrefutable argument substantiating their opinion.

Perhaps the pressure of time upon them weighs too heavily.

And since they show no sign of giving up, let us just charitably say, so far; they don't have one single shred of evidence to support any notion of any supernatural anything.

Nope.
Not one.

I never assumed such a thing about how you became Baha'i. I do know, however, that you're not being very open minded or open to unbiased personal investigation to any other idea than the concept that the great Bahá'u'lláh is the redeemer and prophet of the world's major religions and that he will inevitably create an age of unity and spread his magical pixie dust in the new age of peace through all the world's religions! Ahhh *blushes*


Snide, patronizing shit like this is preciscely why I don't like to discuss my religion online.

Obviously, you've got your mind made up, and nothing is going to pry it open to the possiblity that something might exist beyond your ability to analize and criticize it. You seem awfully passionate about proving the "other" side wrong. Again, you're EXACLTY like so many religious fundamentalists I've met in that regard.
Maybe someday you'll outgrow all that. But for now, I'd really rather not contiue this exchange. Have a good day.

Well, honestly, I have to agree with him. I think the symbiosis of our bodies, the ecosystem, the planet, the solar system, the galaxy, etc had to be put in place by something. I'm consider myself agnostic because I believe there is a higher force that guides the greater universe. Whether my "God" is concerned about my daily goings on is up for debate. But I'm not gonna bash someone for taking their faith a little farther than mine. IMHO that disrespectful and arrogant.

But there is no proof that the universe "just happened" either. Like I said, there's nothing concrete either way.

I agree with FX. "God" isn't a dude.. a big, pissed-off old man in the sky. IMO, even the most solidly "Theistic" religions teach that. As soon as you try to assign a "what" or "who" to God, you're already missing the boat, IMO.
I don't see the East and West in conflict with one another... they're just taking stabs at the problem/question from different directions. Personally, I think East and West have much to learn from one another.
The point isn't how they got there, IMO, it's where they arrive. And ultimately, it's in the same place: Be humble. Respect others, deconstruct your ego. Put others before yourself... and so on.
Playing up on our supposed differences is a waste of time, I think.

On the flip side, the idea that existance somehow just pulled itself out of its own ass just doesn't seem to stand up to reason, IMO.
But if somebody wants to think that... well then, have at it. You've got to go with what works for you.

This may be a persuasive, perhaps even winning argument, in a debate between someone advancing a religious belief, against someone advancing an atheist belief.

I don't (sear doesn't) have that burden.
I have no thing to prove, because I make no concrete assertion.

It is the religionists that affirmatively assert that the basis of the cosmos is the divine.

And once that assertion is made, it becomes the burden of those that assert it to prove it.

And as I've already indicated, it's been literally millennia. And still, not one single proof, not one shred of evidence.

If they state it as their belief; I have no problem with it.
When they state it as fact, I recognize the license their assertion grants me, to defend the truth.

- We ought not overlook Ockham's razor here.
PS / btw:
I understand the nature of this friction.
To the believer, the "antagonism" of the disbeliever can seem destructive, perhaps paranoid.

But it is hardly that simple. The believer might pretend their religion is just a harmless exercise, a comfortable excuse to dress up, & go to meetin'.
Unfortunately, that's absolute fiction.

So many of the destructive inflictions imposed upon Americans by Americans, trace their roots directly or indirectly to religion in general, and perhaps Christianity in particular.

Perhaps the most obvious example of this is the unrelenting clamor to further infringe or usurp a woman's right of choice.
Also obvious, the battle against same sex marriage; essentially a disregard for equality under law.

Both of these hotly contested efforts to impose religious morals upon unwilling others have the sticky, tainted fingerprints of the Religious right all over them.

The badly fragmented coalition of the rational battle these superstitious looneys, not out of sport; but out of absolute necessity.
The Religious right poses a greater threat to the Liberty of U.S. citizens than Usama bin Laden does.

I would say the "tolerant" left poses just as great a threat. Observe infringements upon free speech/expression in Canada and Europe as evidence.

The fact that you call your "side" the "rational" and the other "superstitious looneys" speaks volumes, and smacks of intolerance and narrow-mindedness on your part.

Your arguments could also be easily reversed on you. As secular humanists, with no basis in objective morality, seek constantly to undermine the values and fabric of our society by trying to indoctrinate us into a flippant acceptance of the atrocity of abortion and/or the abnormality of homosexuality.

Now, personally, I fall somewhere in between. I'm all for abortion remaining legal and safe. But don't piss on my head and tell me it's raining -- abortion is killing, pure and simple. As such, it can't be dismissed as lightly as "a woman's right to choose." After all she, and a man, made the "choice" to begin a new life by doing the horizontal bop without taking proper precautions.

Likewise, I'm all for gays having basic right, including the right to partner up for life and have it legally recognized. But again, efforts to "re-educate" society into accpeting it all as hunky-dory and normal trouble me. And don't try to shut me up for thinking or saying so.

Anyway, I hear shrill, hysterical things coming from BOTH sides on these issues, and each is telling me the other is full of essentially wicked people that want to run my life for me. The irony is, IMO, they each would happily run my life if I would just roll over and let them.

As to your other arguments, well, it's the same old circle. I see "shreds", mountains and oceans of evidence everywhere. I'm not sure what some atheists would consider "evidence" anyway... maybe God's driver's license?
Personally, again, I don't care a toss either way. Either you see it, or you don't.

Atheists like to rant and rave about how much damage religion has done. Well, sure, there's been plenty done in the NAME of religion. But there's an old saying, "don't blame ideas for some of the people who believe in them."
Religion is a big target.. a huge one, in fact. So, in that aspect, the atheists have it easy. They are a small minority on the outside. It's easy to take cheap shots where you're in the peanut gallery. Esp. if there really ARE people in the big group making the whole group look like jackasses.

And I don't see that atheism has done much for anybody, really. But I do know that materialsim has done plenty of harm. Even most religion in this day and age is ultimately materialistic.
The notion that people don't have spiritual needs (because we're simply bio-mechanical creatures, another species of animal, if you will) has and will continue to fail miserably. Our society is rife with isolation, despondency and we've got medication coming out our ears. All that comes from this notion that people are just a bundle of desires... meet human desires.. through nifty science and rational thought, and everything will be great!

Yeah... right...

Human beings are spiritual creatures, and if we don't adress that, we'll NEVER be truely happy or see our full potential, IMO.

Myt...If I could express myself like that I would be dangerous. And I agree. Even though I'm not particularly religious, I do incorporate at the very least the ten commandments into my life and I believe in karma. I don't have a structure of anything like that and I rarely pray. But in my little world, my "God" is happy that I acknowledge him and we exist happily together. And as far as I'm concerned, my 17 years on dialysis and still kicking prove that it's working for me. No one can tell me otherwise.

You are a lucky man, FX. I commend you for your grittiness, and willpower to stay with us.

I had an older brother who died of renal failure before I was born. That was well before there was any dialysis machines and kidney transplants. He may be alive today if modern technology as we know it know was available.

I recently read a book authored by journalist Tracy Wilkinson about one part of the Vatican's specialists in exorcism. It is titled "The Vatican's Exorcists". It was an incredible to read, and most of the reporting was done in the country of Italy.

Again, you are very lucky to still be with us. You are a strong person.

I appreciate those words of encouragement. I was 20 and in the Marine Corps when I was diagnosed. It helps that I was young when it happened. I don't let it run my life any more than it already does. I call dialysis my "job".
Luckily I was in the service when it happened so my "job" pays well. And one of my many mottos is "It much easier to be sick if you have a few bucks in the bank".