Damn, From what I see in the video is someone hanging?, but
you losted me with...try comparing that to the terrorism my
people are currently causing. So you are admitting that your
people who wear sheets over their heads is terrorist?

OH GOD!!!!! Where do these internet loonies come from?

I wonder why there is nobody online or on this forum who can
answer my question, or is the question being avoided?
My question (again) is....The most hot topic on these messager
boards is Islam and Muslims. Why people don't talk about how
dirty most Americans are right here in America?

All you seem to talk about is the Middle East or 9-11, but why
not talk about major problems that we're having here in the
states, and how about giving a solution?

Oh in closing for those of you who say we have no problems.
What about Homelessness,Unemployement,high Gas Rates,
poor Education,etc,etc,etc.

\

First of all, what is inside of a person's heart is more important than what is on the outside.
Second, I don't think you've read my posts, because I talk about the problems we have here in America all the time.
Not every non-Muslim American is suspicious of Muslims as a whole. I find many positives in Islam, especially in regard to it's support of education for women.
Of course, there are some sects out there that have bad ideas, but Judeo-Christian America does too. There is no denying that.
I believe there is a lot we can learn from each other, if we can get over the suspicion and long-held grudges that each carry, and that one's understanding of "God" and the Universe is a personal experience.
I've shared mine on the pages of this forum, and though they do not fit in with any of the major religions, I post them because I hope others will understand how I see the world, and respect that.
Without respect for each other and our differences, the world will never be at peace.
I for one, seek to know how others think and feel. And except in the extreme cases, where violence and hatred are the rule of law towards others, I relish the diversity of customs and traditions we have within the human family.

Hear Hear Kat.. i think your analysis is spot on. That's why i always considered characters like Alias to be more akin to a fundo muslim than i could ever be.

Anyhow i was marvelling at the title of this thread. I mean it does imply that PN has come upon some great previously covert TRUTH around which all muslims and islamic ideology come together.

The "truth" about Islam is that it is just as fluid as any other system of beliefs. Just like any other system it has its conservative and progressive elements and it is practiced in countless ways by different cultures. To suddenly have come upon the "truth" about it implies that it is a cohesive and agreed upon ideology which it clearly IS NOT.

This lady's "truth" is HER truth as SHE understands it and as SHE interprets it. Jolly good for her. BUt to assume that any single individual can relay the "truth" about a theology practiced by more than a billion in all parts of the world in a wide mix of cultures, smacks of prejudice. It does so because it seems to be a case of selective hearing. How come when a person says that islamic theology is peaceful in essence, their opinions and feelings are not touted as the "truth". I mean heck i am as qualified as that lady to speak on behalf of the entire muslim world, but it seems that my constant assertions and explanations cannot possibly be the "truth".

Well first of all there is a marked difference. Freedom cannot be IMPOSED, it can be GRANTED or it can be ACHIEVED. TO IMPOSE freedom is to NOT ALLOW PEOPLE to NOT BE FREE. I know it sounds absolutely crazy that anybody would do that, but then again who are WE to say?

Secondly nobody ever IMPOSED PROSPERITY. THat too is something that you EARN and FIGHT for, but it is NEVER IMPOSED.

Likewise Democracy cannot be IMPOSED. IT can perhaps be helped along by empowering people to CLAIM IT, but it is not something that can be imposed. TO IMPOSE it is a complete negation of democratic principles which dictate that any action must be taken ACCORDING TO THE STATED WISHE OF THE PEOPLE.

I would like to consider the following. We know global warming is a FACT. We know that the US is ruining its own environment. This is something that the WORLD agrees on. SO now how would you feel if an external power enters your sovereign territory, shuts down your auto factories, and denies the republicans the right to participate in elections ( connection to big oil and car companies).
THe FACT is that it would do the US a lot of good. In fact it is probable that you would reach this level on your own and that even the Reps will move away from their denial of scientific fact. However there would be a WORLD of difference if you did it on your own OR if you were forced to by an outside power. The former would be your right as a nation ( even if it destroys your climate and nature) yet the latter would undoubtedly be good for you.

YOu can try and separate the West's killings from that of the terrorists, but i cannot understand how you can sanitize one and villify the other. The West simply kills TENS OF THOUSANDS more civilians than do terrorist actions. Sure you have your smart bombs ( and your napalm) but ultimately your forces are responsible for more death and destruction than are the terrorist. YOu cannot deny that.

So i find it reprehensible that you can IGNORE the deaths caused by the West ( they used tanks and shells and other expensive equipment so its OK ) yet flip your lid when desperate people do desperate things.

Killing is wrong no matter what. And it doesn't matter if your president sent you in a tank or whether your fundo mullah sent you with a vest.
Well according to a recent BBC study of 2000 families in Baghdad, they clearly indicated that life is MUCH WORSE after the US invaded the country. So maybe you will find Kat to be non-serious.. but how about families that live in the thick of things? Will you belive THEM when they say things were better under Saddam?

So am i to infer that the rather relaxed and unconcerned way in which "collateral damage" is viewed, torture in abu ghraib and gitmo, assasinations, support for discriminatory and cruel dicatatorships and a host of other things reflect US or Western ideology?

You are right, the US does not capture and behead its enemies. It prefers to do its killing fromt he safety of a bomber plane or from a tank parked at a distance or with its other advanced weaponry.

Sure no american ever strapped on a bomb and blew himself up. But then again no terrorist ever carpet bombed a civilian area, OR used biological and chemical weapons, OR created a concentration camp, OR made a quick buck out of rebuilding the shattered infrastructure of a country after destroying it.

YOu know the moral high ground??? u aint on it.

I agree with you there. I personally believe that a true Islamic society can only come about when secularism is adopted. It is only when government unconditionally accepts the right of each individual to carve out their own belief that a true egalitarian islamic society can arise. Islam can only be spread if it makes it way into people's hearts. And it can only do that if it isn't imposed.

Unfortunately most islamic soceities are those where kids still receive corporal punishment in school. These societies believe in the stick more than the carrot. It is only natural that they should extend this social norm to their belief system also. Which is what they do.

ANyhow the muslim world truly IS at a cross roads. COuntless interpretations of Islam exist and it is practiced in innumerable ways. TO create cohesion within the muslim community requires that each sect or sub-sect accepts the right of the other to understand,preach and practice the religion as they see fit. THis will mean an end to the "righteous by force" tactic employed currently ( and previously by christianity also).

This in turn means that the community as a whole is capable of dialogue with non-muslims. If you can accept ONE differing opinion you can accept them all.

Of course this change also can only come if the socio-economic conditions of these nations develops to such an extent that they are capable of change and capable of understanding that things can only be taught by dialogue and debate.. never by force.

Many things must fall together, but i have only the brightest of hopes

I think terrorism is not so much of a problem of Islam itself, but the deranged people who call themselves Muslims and attempt to convert people by violence. As far as I know it is a religion that promotes Peace, Love, Justice, Respect and Understanding, regardless of Religion. Terrorism is extremism, it's madness and I say that terrorists are tragically misinformed individuals who are taking things way too far.

Examples from the Quran (from http://www.submission.org/terrorism.html):

[Quran 5:32] "......, we decreed for the Children of Israel that anyone who murders any person who had not committed murder or horrendous crimes, it shall be as if he murdered all the people. And anyone who spares a life, it shall be as if he spared the lives of all the people. .............."

[Quran: 7:199] ......You shall resort to pardon, advocate tolerance, and disregard the ignorant.

[Quran 60:8]"GOD does not enjoin you from befriending those who do not fight you because of religion, and do not evict you from your homes. You may befriend them and be equitable towards them. GOD loves the equitable."

[Quran 4:90]"...... Therefore, if they leave you alone, refrain from fighting you, and offer you peace, then GOD gives you no excuse to fight them."

"It is a deplorable and horrendous act that can never be condoned by any God fearing people. Like many other attacks in the past, the terrorists are linked to groups that abuse the name and laws falsely attributed to Islam to commit crimes that are abhorred and strongly condemned by God in the Quran. "

Don't get me wrong. I despise Bin Laden. I loath terrorism and murder under the name of religion, but surely the attacks and such are not valid reasons for me to condemn an entire religion. The extremists merely represent a minority of the Muslims, with it being the second largest religion in the world and all. Judging a group from its minority examples that you see is unfair. We only see the terrorists because they make the news more often than the devoted Mecca pilgrims, and saying that the extremists represent Islam, I believe, is faulty.

If I should answer the question of what is the real truth of Islam, I would say that Islam is a religion that promotes what are universally considered 'correct' and 'moral'. How many times were you told to tolerate and not judge others? Or, 'get into their shoes and walk around'? Or make peace in the place of violence? I as an atheist was taught that countless times in my life. It is, I believe, what most consider to be correct, and Islam is no different. I believe that most religions contain these messages and as far as terrorism goes, it has a little to do with Islam.

I really agree with your last statement; CCV. The Iraqi problem is not about how fast we can pull out our troops. It's about getting the Iraqi people to the position to where they can take on the job with the best prospect of success. In every American military entanglement; some political party or a spokesperson of that party starts with the "Home by Christmas" rhetoric. It just plays on our sentiments. If the desired result was not achieved, then we have just wasted our time.If we could pull out all of our forces tomorrow, would we do so if the goal has not been achieved? No.
Now I also do think American ethnicentrism is somewhat of a problem because it is so fickle. Since who are we to tell the Iraqi people how to govern themselves? Don't they have that right? Again, as in another thread; I bring up the name of Ferdinand Marcos. We didn't seem to have a problem with the way he bled the Filipino people as long as we had Clark AFB and Subic Bay Naval Base there. We even gave him asylum after the Filipino people removed him from power!