Defending the Truth

Kat, on the contrary...

I see glaring weaknesses in the arguments coming from what I would consider the extreme skeptical side.

The real biggie, IMO, is that you can't simply brush off Moses, Jesus, Muhammed and others as dudes with sort of good ideas that caught on for some reason or another -- probalby just because people are scared of death.

That SOUNDS nice on the surface.. but really, give me a break. A person/idea can't survive holding sway over millions/billons for century upon century unless there's something larger at work.

Bullshitters might bring many under their sway in their own time... or maybe for a few years afterward.. but honestly.. where is Hitler today? Stalin? And countless others who were practically considerd gods amongst motal men?

Except for a few whackos here and there... nobody gives a cold crap about those guys.



I'm very skeptical about much that has been ADDED to the Prophet's ideas.. .and the way their teachings have been corrupted or used to serve those in power.
There's a lot to be wary about in organized religion. It CAN be used to shut off the brain. I GET that. I think many people GET that.
But all this effort to convince me they were merely lucky to have their ideas catch on... or perhaps were themselves delusional... well, it just doesn't cut it with me.

I hate to fall back on a cliche.. but you know.. that whole "baby with the bathwater" thing...

Gary, my big question about the Ark story has always been -- who got stuck with shit-shoveling duty?

I don't see how that is necessarily a glaring weakness. The only glaring weakness I see here is your argument that is actually based on a fallacy (just because it is popular doesn't mean it is necessarily true).

Religion is an invention, natural and biological to the human species indeed, perhaps largely in part of our coming to terms with mortality. We're mortal, and it is only natural for us to try to grab something futilely as we're falling off the cliff toward our inevitable fate.

I don't see how that theory is at all implausible, let alone weak.

And where is Zeus?

The point is that, like all of our other biological facilities, religion evolves. The ideas of Zeus, and even people like Kim Il-Sung (which is seen in North Korea as practically a god-incarnate) aren't useful (perhaps because they are fallible and limited figures) so they're eliminated in favor of more useful memes (the monotheistic God, for example, is perfect and infinite).

You're right that there's nothing random or 'lucky' about the popularity of the god-concept; just like there is nothing random about our hands or our brains. They persist because they are incredibly useful on an evolutionary basis. But, I think the 'extreme atheist' (which you detest) merely is making the point that the idea of God is no longer useful, but rather we humans have come upon a greater evolutionary force: empiricism and science.

I spend entirely too much time on the internet. But as we have been discussing The Great Flood, and I am currently watching a special on a suspected very ancient monument off the Japanese island of Yonaguni, I googled around and ran across this page that I thought was relevant.
The Great Flood
About.com: http://www.dreamscape.com/morgana/puck.htm
Titania is the first part, for some reason I can't link to it.

"And where is Zeus?

The point is that, like all of our other biological facilities, religion evolves. The ideas of Zeus, and even people like Kim Il-Sung (which is seen in North Korea as practically a god-incarnate) aren't useful (perhaps because they are fallible and limited figures) so they're eliminated in favor of more useful memes (the monotheistic God, for example, is perfect and infinite)."


I agree with the basic concept you're asserting.

Religion and religious truth is indeed both relative and progressive.

I don't think the Bible is "false" -- but in a larger sense, it has out-lived much of its usefulness.

I am not an Atheist, but in the vast Nostraboris library, the bible is filed under fiction.

People miss the point of the Bible it doesn't matter if there was a Jesus or a Moses. The ideas that are inherant in the bible pre-date the bible itself. Its fictional but what is important about it is what he says about us. As there is no proof any of it happened other then it being self referential. To think that none of it is made up (I'd say all of it is) to suit a purpose is like saying the sun rises in the South. Anyone who wants to believe that in order to prove your love to God you have to almost murder your son (Abraham) or that their was a great flood and Moses walked the desert or the great plagues of Eygpt actually happened when there is no evidence to confirm it other then the book itself..this despite the Eygptians being famous chroniclers or that what happened in the Garden before the death of Jesus was factual...everyone was asleep according to the story itself ..how could sleeping people tell us about the doubts of Jesus in the Garden??..
..anyone that doesn't at least think it some of it (it not all) could be made up is just fooling themselves. Why did it all happen in what we now call the Middle East?? Because they wrote about what they new.

What is more its not just the fear of death that keeps us believing in God its the desire to be more important then we are. We don't like the thought we are insignificant its a predisposition of our intellect to want to be more then we are and look for reasons to justify the desire.

The God described in the Bible and every other book of worship is not a very nice person embued with all the worst human qualities and the worst one of all is that you have to accept and believe in him or else be doomed. That is not unconditional love as so many people seem to think he embodies but conditional love. Whats more in the bible he not only tells you what how to act but what you can think about. Take the 10 commandments do you think humanity would of gotten very far if we indeed didn't covert our neighbors stuff??? Where would human drive come from???

The fascinatiing thing is that Jesus himself (a person we have no idea if he existed or is the comnbination of various 'prophets that walked the earth about 200 years ago) told people to be like little Children. Bible thumpers and so forth think this means just be accepting and not question what you are taught (see the doco Jesus Camp and listen to thecommentary about the little boy in the film with doubts and what happens to people with doubts in that world). However anyone with kids knows that kids do nothing but question and take things apart to see how they work. Just accepting what is written as anyone who believes in God does even if they deny it, is a person not following the actual instructions of the person they claim to follow. Questioning something would in fact deepen your understanding of it.

Anyone can make up a Chruch or something to believe in and people will follow (see link below, OK its a video that mocks belief but its funny) . All you have to do is claim you are part of a long line of prophets including Abarham, Moses, Jesus and so on..as is the case with most churches formed in the last 200 years from the Bahai's to the kormons and people will follow so deep is the desire to believe we are more then we are and the desire to ask Whats it all About Alfie?? Maybe the truth is a very simple thing. We are part of the environment, we evolved and thats all there is. We go back into the earth and become part of the worlds life cycle and so we are more important then we think we are..the mystic world is slowly going..which is why so many crazies are trying to hold onto it..there is nothing wrong with the mystical per se but in believing it you also have to admit there is no freakin proof of it either.. And if what you believe is worth believing why discount anything anyone who challenges your belief says. I chalk that up to fear..fear that there is no God and then fear we aren't very important and ultimately our fear of death. Its very simple

Anyone that thinks religion hasn't been used and isn't used to control people is just not very smart and clearly doesn't read the news.

"People miss the point of the Bible it doesn't matter if there was a Jesus or a Moses."


No Gad, it is you who has missed the point of the bible. Big time.

don't miss its purpose at all because I questioned its purpose and didn't just take what it says for granted like any intelligent person should. I don't need to believe God the bible or a reward after death to be a good person in life ...shame more people don't agree with me ..all the wars, murder, and disharmony that could be avoided..the Bible causes disharmony..its not its purpose but its the result of blind belief in it...faith is only strengthened by questioning it. But fear causes acceptance without questioning it. If one of the purposes of the Bible is to tell people to treat others with respect shame so many people who believe in it can't be bothered to follow one of its basic tenents..

If Jesus came to earth today..the eyes that now burn brightest behind stained glass would cast the darkest shadows upon the purest hearts...because they'd lose their power and if you can't see it then I feel sorry for your misguided vision of reality..

"I told the priest, don't count any second coming
God got his ass kicked the last time he came down here slumming!
He had the balls to come, the gall to die and then forgive us!
No, I don't wonder why, I wonder what he thought it would get us? "

The only reason the bible causes disharmony is cause its truth. Is cause it forces people to look in the mirror, and most times they dont like what they see. Though I must ask what war has the bible started in your or my life time??? Jesus himself said he didnt come to bring peace, but a sword. Basicaly saying the truth hurts, but its the truth regardless.

If you knew anything about the bible, you would know that there is no such thing as a "good person". God doesnt care about you being a "good person", cause there is no such thing. All have fallen short of Gods glory, and not one deserve heaven. " is there one rightious among you?? No Not one" And even what we perseve to be good are like philthy rags before him.

What is a shame, is when people take one lesson from the bible, and forget the rest. And if Jesus were to return today, evry knee would bow, and every tongue would confess that he is Lord of all.