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Religion What is your take on religion? Do you base your thoughts in life according to your religion? Do you feel that religion should be kept out of Government and Politics?

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Old 11-03-2007, 05:41 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hkbajwa View Post
Honestly guys.. in the context of which this dude was speaking, he was clearly exhorting muslims to be patient and non-violent.

It's sort of like the newspaper trick with dogs. It's not like the newspaper actually hurts the dog. It's a symbolic action that expresses that a limit has been reached.

Of course i do not mean to compare women to dogs at all. The point is that in the way he explained the allowance the quran makes for husbands disciplining their wives, the allowance is there to give men another avenue to expression. It does not imply that women can only be disciplined by corporal punishment, but instead the opposite. Just as the silent treatment and the physical distance are ways of expressing dissatisfaction, so too the "beatings" must NOT take any other form than as a symbolic expression.
Are you seriously trying to offer some justification for a man beating his wife? Even if only symbolically?

How can you overlook the implicit assumption that women are somehow inferior to men?

Where does he talk about how women should beat their husbands?

Is this honestly how muslim men feel about women?
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Old 11-03-2007, 06:01 PM   #12 (permalink)
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I could not get the clip to play. I found a transcript. Here it is for anyone else having the same problem.


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Following are excerpts from a program with Saudi cleric Muhammad Al-'Arifi, which aired on LBC TV on September 9, 2007.

Muhammad Al-'Arifi: Men beat women more often than women beat men. I said that some women beat their husbands because this happens, but it is rare, and there is no need to hold conferences on wives who beat their husbands. I believe this is less prevalent, because by nature, the body of the man... In most cases, Allah made the body of men stronger than the body of women. Therefore, you and your sister... You may be taller than your mother, right? If your mother is ill, you may be able to carry her, but she cannot carry you. Allah created women with these delicate, fragile, supple, and soft bodies, because they use their emotions more than they use their bodies. Therefore, while the man may use beating to discipline his wife, she sometimes uses her tears to discipline him. He gets what he wants by screaming, while she gets what she wants from him by crying and displaying emotions. For men, women's emotions may be fiercer than the strike of a sword.

[... ]

First, "admonish them" – once, twice, three times, four times, ten times. If this doesn't help, "refuse to share their beds." In such a case, the husband does not sleep with his wife, or, in other words, he is angry with her. He gives her the silent treatment, refusing to talk to her. If he comes to eat, and she asks him: "How are you?" – he doesn't answer. If she asks him: "Do you want anything?" – he doesn't answer. He distances himself from her in bed and in conversation, he does not sleep with her, but goes to sleep in another room. He shows her that he is angry with her. If this does not help – if the admonishing did no good, and when he goes to sleep in another room, she says: "Thank God, he's gone. Now I've got the whole bed to myself, I will sleep alone in bed and roll over at night as much as I like." If neither method worked with her, what is the third option?

Guest: "And beat them."

Al-'Arifi: That's right. How is this beating performed? What do you think?

Guest:: Light beatings.

Al-'Arifi: Light beatings in what way?

Guest:: For example, I wouldn't beat her in the face...

Al-'Arifi: Beating in the face is forbidden, even when it comes to animals. When a person is beating an animal... Even if you want your camel or donkey to start walking, you are not allowed to beat it in the face. If this is true for animals, it is all the more true when it comes to humans. So beatings should be light and not in the face. Some religious scholars say: "He should beat her with a toothpick." I happen to have a toothpick with me. A man who is angry with his wife because she doesn't get it... If he says to her: "Watch out, the child has fallen next to the stove," or: "Move the child away from the electrical socket," and she says: "I am busy" – then he beats her with a toothpick or something like it. He doesn't beat her with a bottle of water, a plate, or a knife. This is forbidden. The scholars said he should beat her with a toothpick. Check out how gentle the toothpick used for beating is. This shows you that the purpose is not to inflict pain. When you beat an animal, you intend to cause it pain so it will obey you, because an animal would not understand if you said: "Oh camel, come on, start moving." The camel does not understand such things, unless you beat it. A donkey understands nothing but beatings, but a woman, a man, a child, and so on, are generally more affected by emotions than by other things. If you beat her with a toothpick, or if you beat her lightly with your hand, and so on, it is meant to convey: "Woman, it has gone too far. I can't bear it anymore." If he beats her, the beatings must be light and must not make her face ugly. He must beat her where it will not leave marks. He should not beat her on the hand... He should beat her in some places where it will not cause any damage. He should not beat her like he would beat an animal or a child - slapping them right and left. Unfortunately, many husbands beat their wives only when they get mad, and when they start beating, it as if they are punching a wall – they beat with their hands, right and left, and sometimes use their feet. Brother, it is a human being you are beating. This is forbidden. He must not do this.


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Old 11-04-2007, 12:26 AM   #13 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by garysher View Post
Are you seriously trying to offer some justification for a man beating his wife? Even if only symbolically?

How can you overlook the implicit assumption that women are somehow inferior to men?

Where does he talk about how women should beat their husbands?

Is this honestly how muslim men feel about women?
As long as you restrict such beatings by only using a large toothpick it should be OK. If your wife doesn't fetch your beer in a timely manner, that would justify some toothpick action. Women like Bonnie Kim need to realize this.
Old 11-04-2007, 12:29 AM   #14 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OhDear View Post
Well religion, any religion other than pagan worship, seems to be based on a false notion of male supremacy.

Yes, Grace, men ought to love their wives as Christ loves the church.

I hope someday to know a man who will love me with the true concern for my well-being that I believe Jesus has for my heart.

I do not fault the Bible per se or and especially Jesus, but the religion of Christianity in too many places...is about oppression.

OhDear
Have you read the Di Vinci Code? It talks alot about the feminine aspect of religion and how that has dimished in the last 2000 years. That's probably something that needs to reemerge.
Old 11-04-2007, 07:27 AM   #15 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OhDear View Post
Well religion, any religion other than pagan worship, seems to be based on a false notion of male supremacy.

Yes, Grace, men ought to love their wives as Christ loves the church.

I hope someday to know a man who will love me with the true concern for my well-being that I believe Jesus has for my heart.

I do not fault the Bible per se or and especially Jesus, but the religion of Christianity in too many places...is about oppression.

OhDear

I hope the same for you Oh Dear.

However this thread isnt supossed to be about christianity, its about Islam, which is FAR more oppressive.
Old 11-04-2007, 07:31 AM   #16 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tristanrobin View Post
That is NOT what he said - he said don't hit her where it will LEAVE marks ... in other words, DON'T HURT HER


LOL, so your ok with this??? This is oppressive behavor, meant to humiliate ones wife. Then again your a man (kinda) what would you care.
Old 11-04-2007, 07:52 AM   #17 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grace View Post
LOL, so your ok with this??? This is oppressive behavor, meant to humiliate ones wife. Then again your a man (kinda) what would you care.
Grace, you tell me a few posts before you write this zinger, that the thread is about how oppressive the Islamic faith is. Not about Christianity.

But then you go and sneak a hurtful insult in the post that I quote here. And so I would say this thread is about how oppressive the Islamic religion is too exceptin' for how a "good Christian" woman like yourself seized the opportunity to be mean to one of our friends here at the DtT.

I guess that is one reason that while I did not discount the oppression of the Muslim religion, I brought a comparison to Christianity into focus. Christianity is not only oppressive but opportunistic, though as your post demonstrates.

OhDear
Old 11-04-2007, 08:00 AM   #18 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grace View Post
LOL, so your ok with this??? This is oppressive behavor, meant to humiliate ones wife. Then again your a man (kinda) what would you care.
Tristan should avoid topics where he has no understanding - that is, having a wife.
Old 11-04-2007, 08:16 AM   #19 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pensacola_niceman View Post
Tristan should avoid topics where he has no understanding - that is, having a wife.

Bzzzzz!!!! Wrong answer, Pen!!!

If that were true, then we all ought to avoid most of the topics here. Let's see, how many posts have you as a straight man posted on the gay marriage board? How many have any of us posted on the military without the benefit of the Intelligence that the high mucka muckahs have who are making the decisions concerning war?

And on it goes...

There is much to glean from one another and sometimes someone outside of the experience can see things freshly. Like the little boy in the story of The Emperor's New Clothes. He was the only one true enough to state the obvious. Cos he had no awareness of the consequences, only the vision of what was reality.

OhDear
Old 11-04-2007, 08:22 AM   #20 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OhDear View Post
Bzzzzz!!!! Wrong answer, Pen!!!

If that were true, then we all ought to avoid most of the topics here. Let's see, how many posts have you as a straight man posted on the gay marriage board? How many have any of us posted on the military without the benefit of the Intelligence that the high mucka muckahs have who are making the decisions concerning war?

And on it goes...

There is much to glean from one another and sometimes someone outside of the experience can see things freshly. Like the little boy in the story of The Emperor's New Clothes. He was the only one true enough to state the obvious. Cos he had no awareness of the consequences, only the vision of what was reality.

OhDear
It really doesn't matter how I respond to Tristan's posts since he thinks he's too above reading them.
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