New Guidlines on beating muslim women - Page 3

OhDear · 11-04-2007, 08:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pensacola_niceman

It really doesn't matter how I respond to Tristan's posts since he thinks he's too above reading them.

Well Pen, that is where I disagree with him too then. I personally think that the ignore button is silly.

OhDear

pensacola_niceman · 11-04-2007, 08:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OhDear

Well Pen, that is where I disagree with him too then. I personally think that the ignore button is silly.

OhDear

What I don't understand is why. I've always shown respect toward Tristan and never called him names or hurled insults - even on the old board. What is his problem?

hkbajwa · 11-05-2007, 02:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by garysher

Are you seriously trying to offer some justification for a man beating his wife? Even if only symbolically?

How can you overlook the implicit assumption that women are somehow inferior to men?

Where does he talk about how women should beat their husbands?

Is this honestly how muslim men feel about women?

Ok a few things :

Firstly i am absolutely not offering any justification for a man abusing his wife. Only a primitive man resorts to violence. But i was trying to explain to you the context in which this man was speaking.

The simple fact is that corporal punishment is a very much a part of the cultures in which Islam is prevalent. This would have been so whether the population had been muslim, hindu, chirstian or anything else. In pakistan, corporal punishment is not more prevalent in the muslim community than the christian. It is a part and parcel of the culture.

When such is the case, then what he said takes on a new light. You see he is not talking to a culture where corporal punishment is considered wrong. It is very much a part of the disciplinary process.

What he has said to muslims is this:

Do NOT resort to violence with your wives ( he did this by talking of the other actions a man can take first)
Do NOT hit her in the face ( this is a cultural thing. Hitting in the face is a total violation of the other's boundary - and it doesn't matter how hard or how softly you hit )
Do NOT hit where it will leave a mark ( The conflict must be had and then LEFT BEHIND - It should not leave any lasting effects )
Do NOT hit her with the intention of CAUSING PAIN ( the toothpick is completely useless as a weapon. A man can hit harder with his hands. The toothpick ensures that he does not cause physical pain)
Do NOT raise your hand in anger ( These "beatings" must not be administered in a state of anger or passion. Rather one must be thinking clearly - Abuse in anger is not allowed. If such is the case then it is only a miniscule fraction that would even feel the need to resort to such an extreme symbolic action).

I realize that these things are SELF EVIDENT to those who live in western cultures. But that is not the case in lesser developed countries ( Not speaking only of muslim nations - ALL 3rd world countries have cultures that include corporal punishment as a means to discipline those that fall under your jurisdiction ).

TO cultures where beating your wife is not unusual, what he has said is the BEST WAY to explain to the population that discipline cannot come from PAIN. The "beatings" must not be painful and they should not serve to subdue or subjugate, but rather be used as an extreme type of communication WHEN ALL OTHER TYPES OF COMMUNICATION HAS FAILED. Remember, the purpose is NOT to cause pain.

Well this implicit assumption that women are inferior is a cultural thing. SOmething that even the DEVELOPED countries are not free of. But if you notice he does not say that one has more importance than the other. He states that there is a DIFFERENCE ( and that cannot be denied). Women ARE less PHYSICALLY strong than men and it means that women DO get what they want in different manners.

WOmen thankfully do not need to resort to symbolic physical "violence". Women don't need to be men in order to be equally powerful in a society.

Again i must reiterate ; this is not a MUSLIM thing. Corporal punishment is a norm in all 3rd world countries. It is true that this perception MUST change. But i assure you that what he has said is certainly a step in the right direction.

fxashun · 11-05-2007, 06:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OhDear

Well religion, any religion other than pagan worship, seems to be based on a false notion of male supremacy.

Yes, Grace, men ought to love their wives as Christ loves the church.

I hope someday to know a man who will love me with the true concern for my well-being that I believe Jesus has for my heart.

I do not fault the Bible per se or and especially Jesus, but the religion of Christianity in too many places...is about oppression.

OhDear

What's "false" about male supremacy?

knot_e_lady · 11-05-2007, 07:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hkbajwa

Honestly guys.. in the context of which this dude was speaking, he was clearly exhorting muslims to be patient and non-violent.

It's sort of like the newspaper trick with dogs. It's not like the newspaper actually hurts the dog. It's a symbolic action that expresses that a limit has been reached.

Of course i do not mean to compare women to dogs at all. The point is that in the way he explained the allowance the quran makes for husbands disciplining their wives, the allowance is there to give men another avenue to expression. It does not imply that women can only be disciplined by corporal punishment, but instead the opposite. Just as the silent treatment and the physical distance are ways of expressing dissatisfaction, so too the "beatings" must NOT take any other form than as a symbolic expression.

Excuse me, but a husband shouldn't 'discipline' his wife, at all.