Defending the Truth

Aw, Fxie, there ya go again, being all humble and meek.

Truth is we are special in that we are made to have a relationship with God.

And to care for the planet with divine love for all living things.

OhDear

P.S. Mytie Mouzer, I will have to read about the B'hai what all you shared. I am about to get offline though. Running fever and all acky painy tonight. If I stay up and on the computer, my kids won't believe me when I tell them I need them to make me tea and rub my neck.

I'm not so sure about that. I'm not convinced that is the case. Throughout human history, we have worshiped many "Gods" and we still do. While I do believe in a higher power, I really don't think he is all that concerned about "us" any more than the rest of the planet. I think the planet will be just fine without us here. So is there still a "God" without humans here to worship him?
We can't do anything lasting to this planet. One good asteroid hit and everything will reset. We will have wiped ourselves out long before we do any lasting damage to the earth itself. A few million years later, another species will evolve to take over the place. There was life before humanity, and there will be life afterwards.
But that again takes me back to "soul". And what was before this life and where is after death.

Actually, multiple other species demonstrated their ability toward self-awareness to some degree (especially the bonobo). Granted, none have really sophisticated consciousness on the level that humans do, but this is merely attributable, like any species differentiation, to evolution.

Oh, fx, I'm sure you know exactly how it can 'just be over'. How was it before you were born? Have you ever fainted, or say slept without dreaming, only to wake up in an apparent 'instant' from when you lost consciousness (even though maybe hours went by)?

I have a question for the dualists. Suppose, and this is just hypothetical, that we are able to create artificial intelligence, or a computer that would be undeniably conscious as we experience it. Does the computer somehow 'gain' a nonphysical 'soul'? Does God or someone supplant (or create from nothing) a kind of spirit into the computer? Or can we safely say that consciousness is dependent upon the technology of the computer and the relations of its parts (since previous forms of technology didn't give rise to consciousness)? When we turn off the computer, does it turn off, or does it's magic ghost fly up to paradise presumably to feast with its computer god and receive its computer virgins?

The interactionist (dualist) can never give an adequate account of their philosophy because by its very nature, the soul is an indefensible position. On the one hand, we have a nonphysical (what does that mean specifically by the way?) entity with no location, and on the other we have a physical entity with location. Presumably, according to the dualist, these two completely polar definitions interact and have a causal relationship; a relationship, incidentally, which can only be defined in terms of the physical. Therefore attempting dualism is an attempt of folly, an attempt at explaining the inexplicable while simultaneously multiplying unnecessary entities (soul, God); thus an indefensible position.

The "to some degree" part is what has me perplexed. All animals have some communication to some extent and as you state, some of them have "some" sense of themselves. But why did humans get this gift. I really can't place it all on "evolution" though. That just seems too easy. I think there was some manipulation.

Actually right there you might be onto something. We can already dissect the human to the point that the woman is just a s vessel for the baby. If we create a mechanism where women no longer need to gestate a fetus, does that change what/when/how we consider to be "soul". We will pretty much be manufacturing humans at that point. Is this that much different than your scenario. Especially if computers start merging with biomass.
CNN.com - 'Brain' in a dish flies flight*simulator - Nov 4, 2004

Where does the Christian idea of "God" fit into that scenario?

The only 'manipulation' required on the evolutionary process is the environment itself. Intelligence is undeniably the most powerful trait a species could develop to survive against the elements of the environment; many argue that evolution of intelligence is only logically inevitable at some point presuming life on a certain planet stays around long enough.

We have more empirical and scientific explanations for the origins of species other than divine creation. Therefore, to suggest a God would to be to violate Occam's principle (by creating an unnecessary entity).

Honestly, in this context I think God is irrelevant. Regardless of whether there is a God, souls could or could not exist. That being said however, the Christian conception of 'soul' certainly doesn't fit into that scenario. And maybe by a process of logical necessity (if we're to speak on literal levels), the idea of God doesn't fit either.

I actually disagree with you there. I think the disparity between minimum human intelligence and the other animals' maximum is too great to just chalk up to "evolution".
There are a couple ways I think of how we might have become this way. You have evolution. Which I don't think goes far enough to explain how we became the way we are IMHO.

Then you have "God". Under the "God" umbrella, you have the Christian-like and other religion omnipotent God that controls everything around us. We were created from "magic" somehow in this scenario.

You have my idea of God, who controls everything in the universe and we are just another planet in the universe with life on it. But that goes back to my not thinking evolution is the real answer.

Then you have a third much less popular thing. If you look at human history, there's very little of it really as it relates to the age of the planet. Some of the oldest human relics that show intelligence are not much older than 10,000 years old. I think that's significant. "Something" happened to us as a species that has never happened on this planet. Because even the most intelligent primates aren't building houses or slingshots yet.

I have no problem believing we were either put here for some reason or genetically manipulated from primates that already existed here. Considering humans only recently acquired writing skills, any history that might have told our true story.

I don't think God is irrelevant. I think there is a purpose and reason for humans to have to believe in something. Was it bred into us like the urge to eat and breathe, or is it just an outcropping of our intelligence to want to know every friggin thing. "God" and "soul" may be one in the same in a way.

I gotta go for now. I hate talking about this kinda stuff because it's just soo...unlikely. It's like arguing religion. Which I hate.

Fx, I simply don't understand the reasoning behind this 'Cartesian stop', if you will. That science (evolution) can understand the development of the different species and their complexities but only up to this solid line drawn in between humans and non-human animals. It's perfectly logical, and concurrent with the evidence, that humans are subject to the same biological laws as the rest of the animal kingdom. To suggest that we are somehow special in this regard, or that we are somehow center stage for cosmic magnificence, IMHO, is the story of human arrogance. We have to stop alienating ourselves from our environment and realize that we are apart of the greater organism; not only to realize the truth, but for ethical reasons (people believe we can exploit the environment without exploiting ourselves, etc.).

I don't think that evolution explains why humans are exponentially more intelligent than any other animal on the planet. I think we ARE special in this regard.
As you pointed mention, we ARE still a part of a greater organism. But that doesn't mean that we as humans aren't special, it just means that that "organism" is that much larger than we are. In my belief, the earth and for that matter our entire solar system isn't all that special. We are all a part of a much larger organism.
But that's just me.

We are indeed! But you misspelled orgasm.