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Stop the American Atheists (Petition #2493)

Religion What is your take on religion? Do you base your thoughts in life according to your religion? Do you feel that religion should be kept out of Government and Politics?

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Old 12-05-2007, 03:57 PM   #51 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by CrazyFlamingos View Post
I can understand why you would object. But why do you think that Christians should object to it?


Because, and I speak for myself, if I were (still) a Christian, I know I wouldn't want my faith's symbol that represents my savior's sacrifice for humanity to be representative of a world war. I would also not want my faith's image to be perverted by not respecting the sacrifice of those in the war of non-Christian belief. Headstones make more sense because they're an attempt at showing the deceased's life and continued (afterlife) devotion to their religion and savior (particular to that individual), but it is inappropriate for a war memorial.

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For the record, I think that it is inappropriate but I feel that the fuss being made is over the top. It is only one component of a the memorial and I don't see it as worth fighting about.
Perhaps if the memorial were a giant star of David, or crescent-and-moon, or a pagan symbol for that matter, the majority of Americans wouldn't feel it is a fuss that's over the top.
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Old 12-05-2007, 03:57 PM   #52 (permalink)
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You think a memorial dedicated to military personnel of all faiths should be owned by own? Do you see the validity in the argument? Or do you see it as all ado about nothing?
You don't think that among those men and women who fought in the second world war, than any of them were atheists? If it is a war memorial, I don't see any validity at all.

There are other states that put up crosses for religion only. The atheists and various religions probably might have a valid argument about it.
Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path. Psalm 119:105
Old 12-05-2007, 03:59 PM   #53 (permalink)
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From the photo I linked it looks t be the major component and Jewish groups were protesting. Oh yeah, and there was that one inconvenient issue...public lands.

Mount Soledad cross controversy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The city of San Diego has been trying to get the location of the site transferred to the federal branch, meaning that the US National Park service would take over it.
Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path. Psalm 119:105
Old 12-05-2007, 03:59 PM   #54 (permalink)
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What does either of these have to do with Christian symbolism?
Neither.
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Old 12-05-2007, 04:00 PM   #55 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Katczinsky View Post
Because, and I speak for myself, if I were (still) a Christian, I know I wouldn't want my faith's symbol that represents my savior's sacrifice for humanity to be representative of a world war. I would also not want my faith's image to be perverted by not respecting the sacrifice of those in the war of non-Christian belief. Headstones make more sense because they're an attempt at showing the deceased's life and continued (afterlife) devotion to their religion and savior (particular to that individual), but it is inappropriate for a war memorial.
I have to admit that what you say makes good sense.


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Perhaps if the memorial were a giant star of David, or crescent-and-moon, or a pagan symbol for that matter, the majority of Americans wouldn't feel it is a fuss that's over the top.
The majority of Americans might not. But I still would.
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Old 12-05-2007, 04:02 PM   #56 (permalink)
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You don't think that among those men and women who fought in the second world war, than any of them were atheists? If it is a war memorial, I don't see any validity at all.

There are other states that put up crosses for religion only. The atheists and various religions probably might have a valid argument about it.
I'm confused here. What are you saying? There is no valid argument?

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Since 1989, the Mt. Soledad Cross has been involved in a continuous litigation regarding its legal status. According to the interpretation of the First Amendment of the U.S. Constitution and No Preference Clause of the California Constitution by the opponents of the cross, it is illegal to display a religious symbol, such as a Christian cross, on public land, as it demonstrates preference to a specific religion and thus violates the separation of church and state. Judges have sided with plaintiffs on multiple occasions and ruled that the cross is illegal and has to be removed or sold to the highest bidder. Defenders of the cross have explored several opportunities to circumvent judges' decisions. In the most recent development, the land under the cross was transferred to the federal government. Critics of the cross allege that, even if the transfer itself is legal, it does not solve the fundamental problem (the cross is no more legal on federal land than on city or state land).
According to the American Civil Liberties Union, there are several possible ways to resolve the current situation.
  • The cross may be dismantled.
  • The cross may be sold to a third party and physically transferred off the public land. An Episcopal church, located within a few hundred feet from the present location of the cross, has agreed to place it on its property.
  • The government may hold an auction and sell the parcel of the land with the cross to the highest bidder. However, the government is not allowed to give any preference to those buyers who are interested in preserving the cross. An auction such as this was the subject of Proposition K in 2004, which failed 40% to 59%.
Defenders of the cross see all these options as unacceptable and are determined to find a way to leave the cross intact in its present location.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Soledad_cross_controversy
Do you side with people who want to circumvent the judges decisions?


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Old 12-05-2007, 04:10 PM   #57 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanteBoston View Post
are you a former mad munk? because these rambling sure do have all the marks of coming from one.

How you could confidently make such a judgement about the self analysis of a person you know next to nothing about is fascinating to me. And you have no idea what realities I've faced. You post like a frustrated academic. or a failed one.
I wasn't alluding to you in particular, I was merely remarking to the philosophy you espoused (incidentally you presenting a presupposition about me, not vice versa). I have more respect for someone that had undertaken a self-analysis and, upon investigation of the evidence (not upon accepting the status-quo or fallaciously from authority) agreed upon a conclusion, even if I find their conclusions to be false, or even if they seem to have the strength of their convictions (the latter which you criticized).

Perhaps I should advise that you don't take debates with a personal disposition and hint of arrogance. I don't want you to misconstrue something of mine as personal. Or am I just lecturing?

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I told you before about the lectures. What will it take for you to listen for once...truly listen...to a voice not your own?
I'm always listening. Though I don't think you're showing much interest in listening. It's pretty much an exercise in semantics; sure, by definition, not believing in god is atheist, but if you wish to call yourself something else for whatever reason, like I said, that is your prerogative.
"If you want to achieve peace of mind and happiness, then have faith; if you want to be a disciple of truth, then search" -- Friedrich Nietzsche

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Last edited by Katczinsky; 12-05-2007 at 04:13 PM.
Old 12-05-2007, 04:13 PM   #58 (permalink)
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I'm confused here. What are you saying? There is no valid argument?

Do you side with people who want to circumvent the judges decisions?
Are you very liberal?
Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path. Psalm 119:105
Old 12-05-2007, 04:19 PM   #59 (permalink)
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The cross was built as a WWII memorial, honoring the man and women who fought in the second world war.

But like I said, the atheists view the cross as a religious symbol.
Are you gonna sit here and tell me with a straight face that the people who built it didn't look at it as a religious symbol?



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Old 12-05-2007, 04:20 PM   #60 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanteBoston View Post
From the photo I linked it looks t be the major component and Jewish groups were protesting. Oh yeah, and there was that one inconvenient issue...public lands.

Mount Soledad cross controversy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
I understand all that. But it was erected by a bunch of veterans, is maintained by a bunch of veterans and its existence is not harming me nor -- IMO -- is it threatening anyone's religious freedom.

To me it is like the whole "crosses on the side of the roads" controversy. I don't particularly like having little crosses dotting the roadside but there are just bigger fish to fry.

Is presence of the cross on public lands technically a violation of separation of church and state? Yes.

Is it worth me getting my panties in a wad about? No

Right now America spends $700 billion every year on foreign oil. That's our money going overseas when it could be staying here. We have to stop this.
That's why I support the Pickens Plan. Check out the website at www.pickensplan.com. If you like what you see, please join me as a Pickens Plan supporter.

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