Defending the Truth
Articles | Interviews | Politicians | Groups | Arcade | Experience | Donate
  Defending the Truth > Other Topics of Discussion > Religion

Religion What is your take on religion? Do you base your thoughts in life according to your religion? Do you feel that religion should be kept out of Government and Politics?

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 02-29-2008, 03:42 PM   #91 (permalink)
Citizen
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Illinois
Gender: Male
Posts: 47
Country:
Points: 696, Level: 13
Points: 696, Level: 13 Points: 696, Level: 13 Points: 696, Level: 13
Level up: 92%, 4 Points needed
Level up: 92% Level up: 92% Level up: 92%
Activity: 0%
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
Jzyehoshua is offline
Reply With Quote
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlicornsPrayer View Post
Let's not forget Horus, who was worshipped thousands of years prior to Jesus...

1. Virgin birth
2. Only begotten son of Osiris
3. Mother's name was Meri (a.k.a Mary)
4. Step-father was Seb (a.k.a. Jo-Seph)
5. Born in a cave
6. His conception was told to Meri by an angel
7. His birth was heralded by the star Sirus (the morning star)
8. His birth date was the winter solstice (around Dec. 21st)
9. His birth was announced by angels
10. His birth was witnessed by shephards
11. 3 solar dieties witnessed his birth
12. Herut tried to have Horus murdered as an infant
13. Horus came of age with a special ritual when his eye was restored at aget 12
14. No data of Horus between the age of 12 and 30
15. Horus was baptised in the river Eredanus by Anup the Baptiser
16. Anup was beheaded
17. Horus was taken from the desert by Sut (a.k.a Set) to a mountain top and tempted. Sut was the Hebrew 'Satan'. Horus resisted the temptations.
18. Had 12 disciples
19. Walked on water, cast out demons, healed the sick, healed the blind, and stilled the seas.
20. Horus raised his father, Osiris (a.k.a El-Asar), from the dead in the city Anu.
21. Had a public speech known as 'The Sermon On the Mount'.
22. Was crucified with 2 thieves.
23. Buried in a tomb.
24. Decended into hell, then resurrected after 3 days.
25. Horus' resurrection was announced by women.
26. Will reign for 1,000 years in the Millinium.
27. Horus was the savior of mankind.
28. Referred to as KRST, the annointed one
29. Also referred to as the Good Shephard, the Lamb of God, the Bread of Life, the Son of Man, the Word, the Fisher, and the Winnower
30. Zodiac sign is Pisces, the fish.
31. Symbols are the fish, beetle, the vine, and the shephard's staff/crook.
32. Criteria for salvation:"I have given bread to the hungry man and water to the thirsty man and clothing to the naked person and a boat to the shipwrecked mariner."
33. I am statements:
a. I am horus in glory.
b. I am the Lord of Light.
c. I am the victorious one.
d. I am the heir of endless time.
e. I, even I, am he that knoweth the paths of heaven.
f. I am horus, the Prince of Eternity.
g. I am Horus who stepeth onward through Eternity.
h. Eternity and everlastingness is my name.
i. I am the possessor of bread in Anu. I have bread in Heaven with Ra.

I ask the same thing I did of WaitingTables, do you have any reliable links or sources showing these things to have actually been part of Horus worship before the time of Christ?
Sponsored Links
Old 02-29-2008, 03:57 PM   #92 (permalink)
Congressional Representative
 
knot_e_lady's Avatar
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Grand Rapids, Michigan
Gender: Female
Posts: 2,271
Country:
Points: 12,095, Level: 72
Points: 12,095, Level: 72 Points: 12,095, Level: 72 Points: 12,095, Level: 72
Level up: 12%, 355 Points needed
Level up: 12% Level up: 12% Level up: 12%
Activity: 16%
Activity: 16% Activity: 16% Activity: 16%
knot_e_lady is offline
Reply With Quote
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jzyehoshua View Post
I ask the same thing I did of WaitingTables, do you have any reliable links or sources showing these things to have actually been part of Horus worship before the time of Christ?

Parallels between the lives of Jesus and Horus, an Egyptian God
Old 02-29-2008, 04:09 PM   #93 (permalink)
Citizen
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Illinois
Gender: Male
Posts: 47
Country:
Points: 696, Level: 13
Points: 696, Level: 13 Points: 696, Level: 13 Points: 696, Level: 13
Level up: 92%, 4 Points needed
Level up: 92% Level up: 92% Level up: 92%
Activity: 0%
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
Jzyehoshua is offline
Reply With Quote
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by waitingtables View Post
There are 22 mentions of Paul's Apostleship in the Bible, and in all of them save 2, it is Paul referencing himself. And the other 2 are referenced by Luke, his faithful companion and student. Paul is the single greatest contributor of the New Testament, and branded himself as the Apostle to the Gentiles. And before Paul, no one had heard of the notion that the Law had been superseded in any way. Jesus and his followers abided by the entire Law of Moses, including burnt offerings. There is a quote by Peter that would seem to show that he didn't support Paul, it states, "Wherefore observe the greatest caution, that you believe no teacher, unless he brings from Jerusalem, the testimony of James, the Lord's brother." Paul lied about his training as a Pharisee, lied about the mission of Christ, and taught that the Law of the Jews was not important. Ebonite writings show that Paul had no Pharisaic training or background, he was a convert to Judaism, born of Gentile parents in Tarsus. As an adult he came to Jerusalem as a henchman of the High Priest. He gained no advancement, and he split with the High Priest and created his own new religion. Paul recognized that there were two branches of of Christ's mission that were opposing, the "false" teachings of James, the brother of Jesus, and his own Hellenistic mystery romance that disregarded the very core beliefs of Judaism. See 1 Corinthians, 9:20-25 where he himself reveals himself as a liar. He was not a popular figure he was with the people of Jerusalem is clear when you read Acts chapter 21, where he is to sure of his authority and enters the temple, only to be drug out to be lynched by the crowd, who recognize him as the man who taught against the Covenant community and the Law, when he was at Ephesus. And it can be argued that Jesus, in the Book of Revelation, commended the Ephesian church for rejecting someone who claimed to be an apostle, and Paul is the only person other than the 12 original apostles, who had claimed to be an apostle, and that he made this very claim to the same Ephesian Church. Paul himself says in 2Timothy 1:15, "This you know, that all those in Asia have turned away from me." And that it is the 7 churches in Asia, that Jesus is referring to in the Book of Revelation.

The notion that what is in the Bible is correct because God would not allow his word to be misrepresented is what I call circular reasoning.

We could argue the term Messiah and what that meant to the Jerusalem church, and the changing of the word to the Christ in the New Testament. Messiah in the Jewish community of that time, did not mean saviour in a spiritual sense at all. It meant the king who would come and save them from the Roman oppression. It is a political term, and was viewed as such at that time, with no connotations of the supernatural. The term Christos is entirely different in meaning and is Greek, far from unique, and not restricted to one individual. The Greek translation of the word took on tones of a Hellenistic mystery cult with the supernatural power to save souls and redeem the world. Which must be very disturbing to for modern Jewish scholars when they see that their heritage has been used to lend credence to a Roman mystery cult, largely of ancient Persian origin. Early Christians enlarged the Old Testament to create a "bumper" Old Testament, supporting their new religion, while accusing the Jews of deleting these scriptures from their own texts. It is now widely recognized that the original 22 books of the Old Testament are the only components of the true scripture.
Outside of the gospels themselves, there are few references to anyone being an apostle. One of those clear examples though is from Peter (2 Peter 3:15-16), so to make a clear case for Paul not being an apostle you have to somehow explain how Peter could have been mistaken in agreeing with him.

Another case involves Luke, who famous archeologist Sir William Ramsey recognized as one of the foremost historians in history, referring to both Paul and Barnabas as apostles in Acts 14:14. Therefore, to throw away the idea of Paul as an apostle you must also throw out both the letters of Peter, a Gospel, and the main historical record of the early Church!

And you are wrong that the notion of the Law being superseded wasn't around before Paul. It was prophesied centuries before that the Old Testament or Covenant would be replaced by a new one, and the writer of the book of Hebrews pointed to this very prophecy:

Quote:
Jeremiah 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Hebrews 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
As for your quote alleging Peter said not to believe any teacher who didn't bring the testimony of James with them, I'm not sure where you're getting that info from. Nowhere in the letters of Peter does he even mention the name of James and only twice does he use the word "brother", ironically one of them in reference to Paul!

Again, I can't understand where you're getting this from. You think the following verses show Paul to be a liar?

Quote:
1 Corinthians 9:20 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;
21 To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.
22 To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.
23 And this I do for the gospel's sake, that I might be partaker thereof with you.
24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.
25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.
As I pointed out in a previous post, all it means is he altered his teaching and preaching styles based on his audience. That doesn't mean he was lying. It just means, as I clearly said before, that he used logic and reason to speak with the philosophically-minded Greeks, and used the Scriptures to argue with the Scripturally-minded Jews.

Nowhere does he claim he lies...

And Paul wasn't the only one to call himself an apostle. In Revelation 2:2 and 2 Peter 2:1 it refers to multiple false apostles, prophets, or teachers; not just one like you want to make it seem so you can single out Paul. Furthermore, Peter just after saying that backs up Paul's authority by calling him a beloved brother whose writings should be considered among the Scriptures (2 Peter 3:15-16) so it makes no sense for him to be saying otherwise there.

And in 1 John 4:1-3, it states the way to know which are false prophets and have the spirit of antichrist are those which do not confess Jesus was God come in the flesh. That description does not fit Paul.

As for the Old Testament.... what? The Jews themselves recognize all 66 books of the Old Testament as Scriptures inspired by God, not just 22. I have NO idea where you're getting this from. Source and link, please?
Old 02-29-2008, 04:25 PM   #94 (permalink)
Citizen
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Illinois
Gender: Male
Posts: 47
Country:
Points: 696, Level: 13
Points: 696, Level: 13 Points: 696, Level: 13 Points: 696, Level: 13
Level up: 92%, 4 Points needed
Level up: 92% Level up: 92% Level up: 92%
Activity: 0%
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
Jzyehoshua is offline
Reply With Quote
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by knot_e_lady View Post
Thanks for the link, but do you have any showing them to be based on actual Egyptian literature?

A link of my own:

Osiris. Horus. Jesus. Not Triplets!

Quote:
That's quite a list, but let's make it simple to start: A good number -- at least half -- are so far as I have seen bogus. There has not been a shred of evidence for many of these in any book of Egyptian religion I have thus far consulted. So as Clara Peller used to say, Where's the beef? Where's the original Egyptian lit that backs this up? Christ-Mythers: we do not want to hear from Gerald Massey or Godfrey Higgins; we want the original citation from Egyptian records. If I don't hear from any of you within a year (and I know that they check in on this site, because I hear from them),

I'll assume no response is possible and go back to more copycat projects. In some cases below we will draw upon Glenn Miller's copycat article where he has done some previous work.


For convenience I begin by reproducing the "thumbnail sketch of Horus' life" given in Encyclopedia of Religions as offered by Miller, which also lays the groundwork for Osiris:
"In ancient Egypt there were originally several gods known by the name Horus, but the best known and most important from the beginning of the historic period was the son of Osiris and Isis who was identified with the king of Egypt. According to myth, Osiris, who assumed the rulership of the earth shortly after its creation, was slain by his jealous brother, Seth. The sister- wife of Osiris, Isis, who collected the pieces of her dismembered husband and revived him, also conceived his son and avenger, Horus. Horus fought with Seth, and, despite the loss of one eye in the contest, was successful in avenging the death of his father and in becoming his legitimate successor. Osiris then became king of the dead and Horus king of the living, this transfer being renewed at every change of earthly rule. The myth of divine kingship probably elevated the position of the god as much as it did that of the king. In the fourth dynasty, the king, the living god, may have been one of the greatest gods as well, but by the fifth dynasty the supremacy of the cult of Re, the sun god, was accepted even by the kings. The Horus-king was now also "son of Re." This was made possible mythologically by personifying the entire older genealogy of Horus (the Heliopolitan ennead) as the goddess Hathor, "house of Horus," who was also the spouse of Re and mother of Horus.
"Horus was usually represented as a falcon, and one view of him was as a great sky god whose outstretched wings filled the heavens; his sound eye was the sun and his injured eye the moon. Another portrayal of him particularly popular in the Late Period, was as a human child suckling at the breast of his mother, Isis. The two principal cult centers for the worship of Horus were at Bekhdet in the north, where very little survives, and at Idfu in the south, which has a very large and well- preserved temple dating from the Ptolemaic period. The earlier myths involving Horus, as well as the ritual per- formed there, are recorded at Idfu."


Continued:
Old 02-29-2008, 04:26 PM   #95 (permalink)
Citizen
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Illinois
Gender: Male
Posts: 47
Country:
Points: 696, Level: 13
Points: 696, Level: 13 Points: 696, Level: 13 Points: 696, Level: 13
Level up: 92%, 4 Points needed
Level up: 92% Level up: 92% Level up: 92%
Activity: 0%
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
Jzyehoshua is offline
Reply With Quote
 
Continued:

Quoted from:

Osiris. Horus. Jesus. Not Triplets!

Quote:
Horus
Now we get to the matters of Horus. Many of these have had some input from Miller, so we'll report those and add as needed.
  • Was born of the virgin Isis-Meri in December 25th in a cave/manger with his birth being announced by a star in the East and attended by three wise men. The lit has confirmed what Miller offers, and I have also seen the depiction he refers to below. I have found no reference to a cave/manger -- Frazer [Fraz.AAO, 8] has Horus born in the swamps, and knows nothing about a star or Wise Men, of any number.
    ...Horus was NOT born of a virgin at all. Indeed, one ancient Egyptian relief depicts this conception by showing his mother Isis in a falcon form, hovering over an erect phallus of a dead and prone Osiris in the Underworld (EOR, s.v. "Phallus"). And the Dec 25 issue is of no relevance to us--nowhere does the NT associate this date with Jesus' birth at all.
    Indeed, the description of the conception of Horus will show exactly the sexual elements that characterize pagan 'miracle births', as noted by the scholars earlier:
    "But after she [i.e., Isis] had brought it [i.e. Osiris' body] back to Egypt, Seth managed to get hold of Osiris's body again and cut it up into fourteen parts, which she scattered all over Egypt. Then Isis went out to search for Osiris a second time and buried each part where she found it (hence the many tombs of Osiris tht exist in Egypt). The only part that she did not find was the god's penis, for Seth had thrown it into the river, where it had been eaten by a fish; Isis therefore fashioned a substitute penis to put in its place. She had also had sexual intercourse with Osisis after his death, which resulted in the conception and birth of his posthumous son, Harpocrates, Horus-the-child. Osiris became king of the netherworld, and Horus proceeded to fight with Seth..." [CANE:2:1702; emphasis mine] [BTW, the Hebrew word 'satan' is not a 'cognate' of the name 'seth' by any means: "The root *STN is not evidenced in any of the cognate languages in texts that are prior to or contemporary with its occurrences in the Hebrew Bible" DDD, s.v. 1369f]
    The one reference I have found to a birth of Horus has him born on the 31st day of the Egyptian month of Khoiak -- the mythers have a one in 365 chance that this matches Dec. 25th! Achy adds, with Massey as a likely source, the claim that on the walls of the Luxor Temple is a scene showing the "Annunciation, Immaculate Conception, Birth and Adoration of Horus, with Thoth announcing to the Virgin Isis that she will conceive Horus; with Kenph, the 'Holy Ghost,' impregnating the virgin," complete with three wise men. For some reason neither Achy nor Massey provide a name or number for this carving, or a location any more specific than the Luxor Temple, which is a rather huge place that is inaccessible to most of Achy's readers. When pressed by an inquirer at her site, Achy plays word games -- "Isis is the constellation of Virgo the Virgin, as well as the Moon, which becomes a 'virgin' during when it is new. The sun god - in this case, Horus - is born of this Virgin goddess." -- and alludes to a document from the 6th century AD! No substantiation is offered for the Isis-Virgo connection at all; it has no more authority than saying "Isis is Gomer the prostitute." If such a carving exists it is only what Achy thinks it is via the interpretation of Massey. (A writer recently sent this description from an Egyptian tour site: "Kingship was believed to be ordained by the gods at the beginning of time in accordance with ma'at., the well-ordered state, truth, justice, cosmic order. The reigning king was also the physical son of the Creator sun-god. This divine conception and birth was recorded on the walls of Luxor Temple, at Deir el-Bahri, and other royal cult temples throughout Egypt. The king was also an incarnation of the dynastic god Horus, and when deceased, the king was identified with the father of Horus, Osiris. This living king was thus a unique entity, the living incarnation of deity, divinely chosen intermediary, who could act as priest for the entire nation, reciting the prayers, dedicating the sacrifices...A peristyle forecourt of Amenhotep III is fused with the hypostyle hall, which is the first room in the inner, originally roofed, part of the temple. This leads to a series of for antechambers with subsidiary rooms. The Birth Room east of the second antechamber is decorated with reliefs showing the symbolic divine birth of Amenhotep III resulting from the union of his mother Mutemwiya and the god Amun. The bark sanctuary includes a free-standing building added by Alexander the Great within the larger chamber created by Amenhotep III. Well-preserved reliefs show Amun's portable bark shrine and other scenes of the king in the presence of the gods. The sanctuary of Amenhotep III is the last room on the central axis of the temple." This is significantly devoid of a virgin conception or birth, wise men, or a Holy Ghost. You might squeeze an adoration out of it, but who does not adore newborns anyway? But now see the trump card, provided by a Skeptic ashamed of Achy's thesis; see here.)
  • His earthly father was named "Seb" ("Joseph"). Actually Seb was the earth-god, not "earthly," but rather the earth itself (as Nut was the sky), and he was O's dad, not Horus', though one of my helpful researchers tells me there is one version in which Horus was the son of Seb. And don't fall for the etymological trick or treat: You can't get from "Seb" to "Joseph" just by putting the names next to each other.
  • He was of royal descent. Obviously true, and Horus was often identified with the living Pharaoh, but so commonplace as to be meaningless.
  • At age 12 he was a child teacher in the Temple, and at 30, he was baptized, having disappeared for 18 years.
  • Was baptized in the river Eridanus or Iaurutana (Jordan) by "Anup the Baptizer" (John the Baptist) who was decapitated.
  • He had 12 disciples, two of whom were his "witnesses" and were named "Anup" and "AAn" (the two "Johns"). Egyptian religion scholars know of none of this. On this last Miller notes:
    ...my research in the academic literature does not surface this fact. I can find references to FOUR "disciples"--variously called the semi-divine HERU-SHEMSU ("Followers of Horus") [GOE:1.491]. I can find references to SIXTEEN human followers (GOE:1.196). And I can find reference to an UNNUMBERED group of followers called mesniu/mesnitu ("blacksmiths") who accompanied Horus in some of his battles [GOE:1.475f; although these might be identified with the HERU-SHEMSU in GOE:1.84]. But I cannot find TWELVE anywhere... Horus is NOT the sun-god (that's Re), so we cannot use the 'all solar gods have twelve disciples--in the Zodiac' routine here.]
  • He performed miracles, exorcized demons and raised El-Azarus ("El-Osiris") from the dead. Miller notes:
    Miracle stories abound, even among religious groups that could not possibly have influenced one another, such as Latin American groups (e.g. Aztecs) and Roman MR's, so this 'similarity' carries no force. The reference to this specific resurrection I cannot find ANYWHERE in the scholarly literature. I have looked under all forms of the name to no avail. The fact that something so striking is not even mentioned in modern works of Egyptology indicates its questionable status. It simply cannot be adduced as data without SOME real substantiation. The closest thing to it I can find is in Horus' official funerary role, in which he "introduces" the newly dead to Osirus and his underworld kingdom. In the Book of the Dead, for example, Horus introduces the newly departed Ani to Osirus, and asks Osirus to accept and care for Ani (GOE:1.490).
  • Horus walked on water. Not that I have found, but he was thrown in the water (see below).
  • His personal epithet was "Iusa" the "ever-becoming son" of "Ptah," the "Father." He was called the "Holy Child." Miller says:
    This fact has likewise escaped me and my research. I have looked at probably 50 epithets of the various Horus deities, and most major indices of the standard Egyptology reference works and come up virtually empty-handed. I can find a city named "Iusaas" [GOE:1.85], a pre-Islamic Arab deity by the name of "Iusaas", thought by some to be the same as the Egyptian god Tehuti/Thoth [GOE:2.289], and a female counterpart to Tem, named "Iusaaset" [GOE:1.354]. But no reference to Horus as being "Iusa"... ]
  • He delivered a "Sermon on the Mount" and his followers recounted the "Sayings of Iusa."
  • Horus was transfigured on the Mount.
  • He was crucified between two thieves, buried for three days in a tomb, was resurrected. None of these three can be found, either. On the last Miller writes:
    I can find no references to Horus EVER dying, until he later becomes "merged" with Re the Sun god, after which he 'dies' and is 'reborn' every single day as the sun rises. And even in this 'death', there is no reference to a tomb anywhere...
    I found in Budge one idea that Horus had died and been cast in pieces in the water, and his parts were fished out by Sebek the crocodile god at Isis' request. But that's a funny sort of baptism at best (see above). Another source notes a story where Horus is bitten by a snake and revived, which is still not much of a parallel.
  • Titles: Way, the Truth the Light; Messiah; God's Anointed Son; Son of Man; Good Shepherd; Lamb of God; Word made flesh; Word of Truth. I found thesed titles: [Bud.ERR, 78] Great God, Chief of the Powers, Master of Heaven, Avenger of His Father (since he beat up Set, who "killed" Osiris). He may have been called rightly "Son of Man" as the son of royalty (see here) but I have found no evidence for this.
  • Was "the Fisher" and was associated with the Fish ("Ichthys"), Lamb and Lion.
  • He came to fulfill the Law.
  • Was called "the KRST" or "Anointed One."
  • Was supposed to reign one thousand years. I have found no evidence for any of these last four.
Conclusion: This one seems to be full of ringers so far, and it's high time the mythicists backed these up with more than third-hand sabre-rattling from the Barbara Walkers and the Gerald Masseys. So I challenge them now to come up with the gods -- er, goods. Any takers? (Some of these also appear from Tom Harpur -- see more on that here.)
For more: See Mark McFall take on "Skeptic X" (skepticism's own Acharya S) on the subject of O's "resurrection" here and here and here.
Sources:
Bud.ERR -- Budge, E. Wallis. . 1961.
Fraz.AAO -- Frazer, J. G. Adonis, Attis, Osiris. 1961.
Griff.OO -- Griffith, J. Gwyn. The Origins of Osiris and His Cult. Brill: 1996.
Meek.DL -- Meeks, Dimitri. Daily Life of the Egyptian Gods. 1996.
Short.EG -- Shorter, Alan. Egyptian Gods: A Handbook. 1937.
Old 02-29-2008, 04:40 PM   #96 (permalink)
Kitchen Enchantress
Premium Member
 
AlicornsPrayer's Avatar
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Illinois
Gender: Female
Posts: 3,621
Country:
Points: 17,295, Level: 83
Points: 17,295, Level: 83 Points: 17,295, Level: 83 Points: 17,295, Level: 83
Level up: 89%, 55 Points needed
Level up: 89% Level up: 89% Level up: 89%
Activity: 28%
Activity: 28% Activity: 28% Activity: 28%
AlicornsPrayer is offline
Reply With Quote
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jzyehoshua View Post
Continued:

Quoted from:

Osiris. Horus. Jesus. Not Triplets!
Bible difficulties answered. Bible contradictions answered.


Mission Statement

Tekton Apologetics Ministries is committed to providing scholarly answers to serious questions which are often posed on major and minor elements of the Christian faith. We believe in the importance of sound Christian doctrine which is based on a careful exegetical analysis of scriptures from the Holy Bible. We also believe that it is important to incorporate the findings of various theological and scientific disciplines in order to properly assess the veracity of scriptural evidences, and to carefully evaluate issues which are relevant to the Church as a whole.


Now Jzye, I realize that for you it's important that any type of reference to prior God-men HAS to be denied or 'proven' as nothing but a myth...

Unfortunately for you though, even IF they are myths, they are myths that exsisted prior to the myth surrounding the birth/life of Jesus and are very similar to one another. Which leads anyone with an ounce of intelligence to realize that even if the man himself exsisted, that the stories told to build him up themselves were borrowed from other exsisting God-man stories.

And that dear, is what the case is in regards to Jesus. That people borrowed from the exsisting God-man myths to build him up into more then he was.

I've no doubt that he exsisted. But I also believe that the stories told about his birth and miracles are also exaggerations on the part of those hoping to create a religion from his human ministring during his lifetime.

I realize that as a Christian though, that you need to feel that stories told about other God-men need to be down played or proven 'false', in order to make it appear to those of your mind set that no other God-men exsisted prior or after Jesus and distract your purpose of embracing the exaggerations and myth that created your own faith and followings.
Old 02-29-2008, 06:04 PM   #97 (permalink)
Block Captain
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 368
Country:
Points: 2,276, Level: 28
Points: 2,276, Level: 28 Points: 2,276, Level: 28 Points: 2,276, Level: 28
Level up: 84%, 24 Points needed
Level up: 84% Level up: 84% Level up: 84%
Activity: 16%
Activity: 16% Activity: 16% Activity: 16%
Ralph is offline
Reply With Quote
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by waitingtables View Post
There are 22 mentions of Paul's Apostleship in the Bible, and in all of them save 2, it is Paul referencing himself. And the other 2 are referenced by Luke, his faithful companion and student. Paul is the single greatest contributor of the New Testament, and branded himself as the Apostle to the Gentiles. And before Paul, no one had heard of the notion that the Law had been superseded in any way. Jesus and his followers abided by the entire Law of Moses, including burnt offerings. There is a quote by Peter that would seem to show that he didn't support Paul, it states, "Wherefore observe the greatest caution, that you believe no teacher, unless he brings from Jerusalem, the testimony of James, the Lord's brother." Paul lied about his training as a Pharisee, lied about the mission of Christ, and taught that the Law of the Jews was not important. Ebonite writings show that Paul had no Pharisaic training or background, he was a convert to Judaism, born of Gentile parents in Tarsus. As an adult he came to Jerusalem as a henchman of the High Priest. He gained no advancement, and he split with the High Priest and created his own new religion. Paul recognized that there were two branches of of Christ's mission that were opposing, the "false" teachings of James, the brother of Jesus, and his own Hellenistic mystery romance that disregarded the very core beliefs of Judaism. See 1 Corinthians, 9:20-25 where he himself reveals himself as a liar. He was not a popular figure he was with the people of Jerusalem is clear when you read Acts chapter 21, where he is to sure of his authority and enters the temple, only to be drug out to be lynched by the crowd, who recognize him as the man who taught against the Covenant community and the Law, when he was at Ephesus. And it can be argued that Jesus, in the Book of Revelation, commended the Ephesian church for rejecting someone who claimed to be an apostle, and Paul is the only person other than the 12 original apostles, who had claimed to be an apostle, and that he made this very claim to the same Ephesian Church. Paul himself says in 2Timothy 1:15, "This you know, that all those in Asia have turned away from me." And that it is the 7 churches in Asia, that Jesus is referring to in the Book of Revelation.

The notion that what is in the Bible is correct because God would not allow his word to be misrepresented is what I call circular reasoning.

We could argue the term Messiah and what that meant to the Jerusalem church, and the changing of the word to the Christ in the New Testament. Messiah in the Jewish community of that time, did not mean saviour in a spiritual sense at all. It meant the king who would come and save them from the Roman oppression. It is a political term, and was viewed as such at that time, with no connotations of the supernatural. The term Christos is entirely different in meaning and is Greek, far from unique, and not restricted to one individual. The Greek translation of the word took on tones of a Hellenistic mystery cult with the supernatural power to save souls and redeem the world. Which must be very disturbing to for modern Jewish scholars when they see that their heritage has been used to lend credence to a Roman mystery cult, largely of ancient Persian origin. Early Christians enlarged the Old Testament to create a "bumper" Old Testament, supporting their new religion, while accusing the Jews of deleting these scriptures from their own texts. It is now widely recognized that the original 22 books of the Old Testament are the only components of the true scripture.
I do not know just where you reference your information, but its certainly not from the scriptures. Peter, very distinctly and very clearly declares the apostleship of Paul and and declares that the writings of of Paul are to be considered scriptural. (2 Peter 3:15-17). And then you "accuse" God of circular reasoning? The circular reasoning comes from "your" cognation to reason properly. The scriptures are again very clear with the promise that God will not allow His word to be corrupted. As you want to "corrupt" the scriptures to allow worship in the fashion that you wish to declare, not with what is actually written. (Psalms 119:160, l Peter 1:23, 1:25, Matthew 24:35, Psalms 12:6-7) All these passages declare the promise of God, that His Word will not see corruption. And that we are to be "sanctified" in the truth, and The Word of God is truth. (John 17:17). As I said, previous, the ONLY way to find the type of worship that you declare is to declare the words of God, false. Quite amusing, Gods words are wrong, and of course "YOU" are correct. Ralph

Last edited by Ralph; 03-01-2008 at 11:54 AM.
Old 02-29-2008, 06:40 PM   #98 (permalink)
Citizen
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Illinois
Gender: Male
Posts: 47
Country:
Points: 696, Level: 13
Points: 696, Level: 13 Points: 696, Level: 13 Points: 696, Level: 13
Level up: 92%, 4 Points needed
Level up: 92% Level up: 92% Level up: 92%
Activity: 0%
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
Jzyehoshua is offline
Reply With Quote
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlicornsPrayer View Post
Bible difficulties answered. Bible contradictions answered.


Mission Statement

Tekton Apologetics Ministries is committed to providing scholarly answers to serious questions which are often posed on major and minor elements of the Christian faith. We believe in the importance of sound Christian doctrine which is based on a careful exegetical analysis of scriptures from the Holy Bible. We also believe that it is important to incorporate the findings of various theological and scientific disciplines in order to properly assess the veracity of scriptural evidences, and to carefully evaluate issues which are relevant to the Church as a whole.


Now Jzye, I realize that for you it's important that any type of reference to prior God-men HAS to be denied or 'proven' as nothing but a myth...

Unfortunately for you though, even IF they are myths, they are myths that exsisted prior to the myth surrounding the birth/life of Jesus and are very similar to one another. Which leads anyone with an ounce of intelligence to realize that even if the man himself exsisted, that the stories told to build him up themselves were borrowed from other exsisting God-man stories.

And that dear, is what the case is in regards to Jesus. That people borrowed from the exsisting God-man myths to build him up into more then he was.

I've no doubt that he exsisted. But I also believe that the stories told about his birth and miracles are also exaggerations on the part of those hoping to create a religion from his human ministring during his lifetime.

I realize that as a Christian though, that you need to feel that stories told about other God-men need to be down played or proven 'false', in order to make it appear to those of your mind set that no other God-men exsisted prior or after Jesus and distract your purpose of embracing the exaggerations and myth that created your own faith and followings.
All of which fails to address the point I was making in posting that article. Is there any evidence from Egyptian literature or archeology showing those myths were at all similar to Biblical Christianity before Jesus came?

This is doubtless a personal issue to you as well as to me. But regardless, there are still questions that need to be answered.

Yes, I do have my biases based upon personal convictions and experiences, so does the Tektonics site, but so do the atheist authors. The question remains, is there any genuine evidence supporting the claims that Horus or Mithraism were similar to Christianity?

Are the claims ones made off conjecture by atheist authors with no grounds in Egyptian literature or archeology, or are they genuine? That is the question that needs to be answered, and regardless of who is making what points or what their intentions are, does not negate the seriousness of that question and its need to be addressed.

Scholars and people disagree all the time. What it comes down to is, on whose side does the hard evidence lie? Which way do the facts point?
Old 03-03-2008, 06:51 AM   #99 (permalink)
Congressional Representative
 
waitingtables's Avatar
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: New Jersey
Gender: Female
Posts: 2,102
Country:
Points: 15,173, Level: 79
Points: 15,173, Level: 79 Points: 15,173, Level: 79 Points: 15,173, Level: 79
Level up: 65%, 177 Points needed
Level up: 65% Level up: 65% Level up: 65%
Activity: 72%
Activity: 72% Activity: 72% Activity: 72%
waitingtables is offline
Reply With Quote
 
I'll be back with your proof. But you have to realise that the Church and those backing it aren't the only authority on this subject anymore. There are many millions of people who can read, and we don't need them to censor or interpret it all for us anymore.

And there is no way that you can convince people that mythology that pre-dates the time of Jesus, isn't true. Simply pick up a good book about mythology and you'll find all the similarities you like.

And Ralph, why would I use the scriptures to prove my point, they have been misinterpreted, twisted, and changed in order to back up any argument from the Church. That is my point. Are you arguing that the Church didn't do that?
Old 03-03-2008, 08:50 AM   #100 (permalink)
Account Deleted
Join Date: Dec 2006
Gender: Female
Posts: 3,738
Country:
Points: 16,625, Level: 82
Points: 16,625, Level: 82 Points: 16,625, Level: 82 Points: 16,625, Level: 82
Level up: 55%, 225 Points needed
Level up: 55% Level up: 55% Level up: 55%
Activity: 0%
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
OhDear is offline
Reply With Quote
 
Quote:
And before Paul, no one had heard of the notion that the Law had been superseded in any way. Jesus and his followers abided by the entire Law of Moses, including burnt offerings.
from WT.

Actually, I don't know if the word superseded is the right one to be using, but Jesus Himself did not abide by the entire Law, if you will...
He healed on the Sabbath and his disciples walking with him in a field, ate, by picking the wheat on the Sabbath.

Jesus came not to keep the Law so much as to show it's fulfillment by His life, even as He declared that all the Law could be summed up by this: Love God with all your heart, soul and strength and to love your neighbor as yourself.

OhDear
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:19 PM.


 Top Political Sites
Poltical Topsites