Defending the Truth

Why do you think that the Freemasons were or are fanatics? I'm sure that there some in the membership that are, but certainly not a significant amount. I would complain about them not allowing women members before I called them fanatics.

And since I live in, and am a citizen of the U.S., it is of more concern to me than another country's system. I do not think that your examples of theocracies included the Saudis or the Taliban in Afghanistan, or Iranians. Not everyone is going to tolerate the religious ideals of another religion. If we were to have a state run religion, with the teachings of it being taught in public school, I would take my kids out of school. I would allow them to stay in school however, if the school taught the tenets of other faiths equally. But I rail against indoctrination of most sorts.

Except your own.

Obviously, to everyone but you, paying taxes, which is required, doesn't mean the taxpayer endorses everything the majority votes to do. Some things are properly subject to majority vote, and other things are not. How to spend tax money is properly subject to majority vote, and what and how to worship or think is not.

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Quote: The very purpose of having a state religion is (1) to provide state funding to the "right" religion, (2)provide state recognition to the "right" religion. Quote: The very word "toleration" implies that you are wrong, but we will just put up with you anyway and perhaps you will change your mind and see the error of your ways. True freedom of religion requires adherents to move beyond toleration to respect, i.e. I might possibly be wrong no matter how sure I am of my beliefs so it ill behooves me to show any lack of respect to others. True freedom of religion means that adherents of any religion have equality under the law. Equality is lacking in states with a sponsored religion no matter how tolerant they are. Now you are trying to redefine the meaning of "tolerance": tolerate • verb 1 allow (something that one dislikes or disagrees with) to exist or occur without interference. 2 patiently endure (something unpleasant). Where does tolerance imply a lack of respect?

Tolerance as per your definition means to allow or endure something you dislike or disagree with, whereas respect means knowing it is not your responsibility to "allow" something, that person has an equal right to free belief. And from a pragmatic point of view, it means knowing that someday the shoe may be on the other foot, and you may be the one being tolerated rather than the one tolerating.

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Do you really believe that muslims or pagans have equality with Christians in America?

Legally, they do.

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Quote: Perhaps you should open your mind. Why else would any religion desire governmental recognition/aid/support than the fact that they fear they cannot stand on their own merits?

"Surviving" is not the issue. Living with respect for one's personal beliefs is the issue. Living with equality regardless of one's beliefs is the issue.
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Gary, I'm not indoctrinated into any faith. And I tend to be wary of establishment in a variety of areas. While it is clear that in some countries, you can have a state run religion and still have religious freedom and tolerance, that does in fact still leave an opening for abuse. As an American, I would rather our system, than a state run religious system. It is clear to see that when there are openings for abuse in a system, eventually there will be someone or a group of people who will abuse it. I give the Bush administration as an example of a group who have in fact done just that. He clearly finds our Constitution to be just a god damned piece of paper, in his own words, and has allowed it to be weakened, even though he swore an oath to protect, defend, and preserve it.

Not necessarily. The state religion can be imposed on citizens, other religions can be forbidden or criminalized.







Legality of something doesn't require respect. Theoretically, legality does require tolerance, but when the law cannot be enforced it cannot enforce tolerance either. People's minds are not changed by criminalization or decriminalization. That is why the numbers of abortion were just as high before 1973 when abortion was decriminalized.

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Quote: "Surviving" is not the issue. Living with respect for one's personal beliefs is the issue. Living with equality regardless of one's beliefs is the issue. __________________And how is equality of religious belief compromised in western countries that have state religions? Ironically I can't think of any other western country that believes its foundational principles are God given!! Like many Americans I think you are a victim of "World Series Syndrome".

This country doesn't "believe" its foundational principles are God given! That is just a minority composed of fundamentalists speaking.

True freedom of religion means adherents of all religions and of none have equal access to public areas and equality under the law. That means the followers of a majority religion must refrain from forcing their precepts upon the rest of the population by using the force of law. It doesn't always happen in this country, but it is extremely unlikely to happen in a country with a state religion.

That's the difference between a Buddhist run country and, say, a Muslim run one, where if you break their RELIGIOUS laws, you die.

I believe our rights are God given.