Interfaith dialogue - Page 12

highway80west · 05-12-2008, 10:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by garysher

Sorry Willie but your wrong about that

Well, you made a spelling error. Buzzzzzzzzzzzz!!!

AlicornsPrayer · 05-12-2008, 10:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Katczinsky

I would say I know what you're talking about, considering the Trinity is supposed to be considered separate yet a single entity. Likewise, I believe Hinduism (popular at least) believes in something similar in that the multiple deities are really just a part of the single Supreme Being.

However I'm not sure if that's the same thing considering you mention it's compatible with atheism (or the disbelief in any deities).

On the other hand I can definitely see Gary's point. Despite what you've told me I still really don't know what Wiccanism is; other than a mesh of relativity. Buddhism doesn't necessarily claim to be one set of beliefs borrowing from a distinct canon; but there are still some fundamentals of Buddhism that makes it separate from everything else, otherwise why give it a name?

To me religion serves different purposes. Mainly I'd say they provide common identity, and they definitely provide a means of opiating oppressed masses. I'm not too sure how Wiccanism does either one of those. From what you said it seems to me that Wiccans hold the shared belief of some sort of universal supreme being; usually manifest through multiple different entities (perhaps states or manifestations?). I don't see how that is compatible with atheism. Obviously I recognize universal forces such as gravity, and even more powerful universal forces such as electromagnetism; but I don't consider any of them to be God(s). That's just rubbish.

Which of course brings us to a debate on what we should consider as God. To me, when I say "God", I refer to the conception of an intelligence that created and (perhaps) rules the universe. Usually this entity is conceived as non-physical. I think we're highly digressing if we suddenly trivialize the original conception of "God" into this weird unspecific 'force' that is more powerful than humans; otherwise everything from gravity to thunderstorms should be considered as "Gods".

I wasn't saying it was compatible with athiesm, but that some Wiccans adopt an athiest approach in regards to the Divine...They simply do not believe that any dieties exsist.

They believe that mankind is the creators of the concept of 'The Divine'...That there is no actual diety, but one's own thoughts creating a Divine presence within themselves that affects the enviroment around them through their own will and actions...In otherwords, they don't believe that there is a 'God' or 'Goddess' at all...Just simply that all of are a part of nature, can effect nature, and are the creators of their enviroment and what happens. In some ways, it actually is more of a Buddhist philosophy that they practice...That it's the will of self that creates change by observing nature's cycles and using them to one's benefit.

Katczinsky · 05-12-2008, 10:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlicornsPrayer

I wasn't saying it was compatible with athiesm, but that some Wiccans adopt an athiest approach in regards to the Divine...They simply do not believe that any dieties exsist.

They believe that mankind is the creators of the concept of 'The Divine'...That there is no actual diety, but one's own thoughts creating a Divine presence within themselves that affects the enviroment around them through their own will and actions...In otherwords, they don't believe that there is a 'God' or 'Goddess' at all...Just simply that all of are a part of nature, can effect nature, and are the creators of their enviroment and what happens. In some ways, it actually is more of a Buddhist philosophy that they practice...That it's the will of self that creates change by observing nature's cycles and using them to one's benefit.

So, Wiccanism is reduced to the observance that your state of mind effects your actions which in turn effects your environment? Only that one's state of mind is called a 'divine presence'?

I believe I have it wrong, but:

The fact that I directly effect my environment seems obvious; why trivialize the obvious with hazy broad imaginary claims to 'divinity' and 'spirit'? Why is a physical mind so unromantic to people? The phenomenon of my conscious is the product of mere physical relations, and it still functions in every way as a mind; I have emotions, thoughts, memories, and personality. Why can't we just leave it at that and recognize the inner beauty of the actual complexity and phenomenon of the human mind without trivializing it in simplistic terms of spirit?

AlicornsPrayer · 05-12-2008, 10:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Katczinsky

So, Wiccanism is reduced to the observance that your state of mind effects your actions which in turn effects your environment? Only that one's state of mind is called a 'divine presence'?

I believe I have it wrong, but:

The fact that I directly effect my environment seems obvious; why trivialize the obvious with hazy broad imaginary claims to 'divinity' and 'spirit'? Why is a physical mind so unromantic to people? The phenomenon of my conscious is the product of mere physical relations, and it still functions in every way as a mind; I have emotions, thoughts, memories, and personality. Why can't we just leave it at that and recognize the inner beauty of the actual complexity and phenomenon of the human mind without trivializing it in simplistic terms of spirit?

LOL!!! You are tying to attach a observation of Divinity to what I've said...They simply do not believe that there's a Divine at all. That there isn't a god(s) going about interferring or helping in people's lives. They don't have any mystical outlook on how things happen like you're trying to attach to what I've tried to explain...They simply see the physical world as it is, believe in harmony with nature, and that it's mankind's acts that interfer with the natural course of change...But they do so within a structure of belief in nature, rather then in a belief in a Divine presence.

Simply put, although MOST Wiccans would believe in some type of Divine, these types of Wiccans do not at all. I personally can't explain it any better then I've done, cause one...I'm not a practitioner of Wicca and only have the understanding of how it's been explained to me by those that are...And second, I also don't subscribe within my own path to an atheist perspective.

So to fully understand what I've tried to explain, you'd actually need a Wiccan who is athiest to explain it in terms you'd understand. LOL!

Katczinsky · 05-12-2008, 11:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlicornsPrayer

LOL!!! You are tying to attach a observation of Divinity to what I've said...They simply do not believe that there's a Divine at all. That there isn't a god(s) going about interferring or helping in people's lives. They don't have any mystical outlook on how things happen like you're trying to attach to what I've tried to explain...They simply see the physical world as it is, believe in harmony with nature, and that it's mankind's acts that interfer with the natural course of change...But they do so within a structure of belief in nature, rather then in a belief in a Divine presence.

Simply put, although MOST Wiccans would believe in some type of Divine, these types of Wiccans do not at all. I personally can't explain it any better then I've done, cause one...I'm not a practitioner of Wicca and only have the understanding of how it's been explained to me by those that are...And second, I also don't subscribe within my own path to an atheist perspective.

So to fully understand what I've tried to explain, you'd actually need a Wiccan who is athiest to explain it in terms you'd understand. LOL!

Oh, sorry, I thought you said they don't believe in Gods but believed that one creates a "Divine presence" (as you said) within oneself that defines how you effect your environment.

But regardless, you must understand where I am at a loss. By the strict observations that you have laid out about "atheist Wiccans" (i.e. there are no deities, there is no divine in any actual sense, humans directly effect their environments, etc.), perhaps even I could be considered under the subheading of "atheist Wiccan". Which I feel is very misleading. Why? Because tagging on the qualifier "Wiccan" connotes that I believe in something beyond that which is atheist; that is it would connote that I subscribe to a particular faith.

Now, I don't believe that "mankind's acts that interfer with the natural course of change" considering mankind is as natural as it's environment. However, I think any respectable scientist or philosopher who understands the concept of universe (i.e., a totality of all things existing) would understand that nothing can exist outside such a definition. By consequence it is concluded that inherently existing entities are absurd. Therefore everything is connected. I believe this is one of the major fundamentals of Eastern thought (specifically Buddhism), and perhaps materialism is a necessary precondition of Buddhism.

But I don't call myself Buddhist, because I would inevitably tag on insinuations of belief in the supernatural which although is unnecessary for Buddhism, it indeed is present.

I don't think such a qualifier is appropriate for me.

In asking what the qualifier of "Wiccan" represents, I'm trying to differentiate what exactly makes a "Wiccan atheist" separate from mere "atheist" or from "Buddhist", and therefore ultimately what "Wiccan" truly means. So far I haven't gotten that much of a straight answer.

AlicornsPrayer · 05-12-2008, 11:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Katczinsky

In asking what the qualifier of "Wiccan" represents, I'm trying to differentiate what exactly makes a "Wiccan atheist" separate from mere "atheist", and therefore ultimately what "Wiccan" truly means. So far I haven't gotten that much of a straight answer.

You've gotten a straight answer though...Wicca is very diverse as is it's followers. Saying that Wiccans 'only' believe in this/that is incorrect. Because there's several different traditions and practices, so trying to pin it down to just one single explinaition/viewpoint is impossible.

YOU thought they believed in a bunch of different dieties...I've tried to explain to you though that only SOME do, others don't...Some believe in a single diety, some believe in no dieties, and some believe that all dieties are the same spirit, but with different facets to that spirit OR some believe in many dieties.

You're basically doing what some Christians do in fact...Approaching it in an 'either or neither' type of mindset. And unfortunately, trying to attach that into a meaning about 'what is Wiccan' is pretty useless.

The ONLY set thing about Wicca is the Rede...And even then not all Wiccans interpret that in the same way. LOL!

What would make a Wiccan athiest different from an athiest in general, is that they believe through their own mind's power, they can effect the enviroment around them...Basically boils down to the theory of 'how much of the mind is used'...5%, 10%, half? And that the portion that isn't being used is stored up power that one can train themselves to use...In fact, they believe everyone, whether or not their Wiccan, can tap into that unused source to change things about their lives or enviroment..Even use it to change others. And they combine that by using nature to boost their awareness and perception.

They believe their minds are an untapped power source and through exercise and sheer will, they can physically make things change just using their minds...

That's about the simplist way I can explain it...As I said, you'd actually have to talk to a Wiccan that follows this specific way, and have them explain it themselves.

Katczinsky · 05-13-2008, 12:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlicornsPrayer

You've gotten a straight answer though...Wicca is very diverse as is it's followers. Saying that Wiccans 'only' believe in this/that is incorrect. Because there's several different traditions and practices, so trying to pin it down to just one single explinaition/viewpoint is impossible.

Well as I have pointed out, I feel that perhaps even the most diverse of 'religions', Buddhism, can essentially be broken down to some very basic fundamentals.

My point was essentially that, if different 'sects' of Wicca are as diverse as you say (i.e. that they don't believe in the same thing or they don't have shared fundamental beliefs), then perhaps these different sects should be considered different religions?

Quote:

YOU thought they believed in a bunch of different dieties...I've tried to explain to you though that only SOME do, others don't...Some believe in a single diety, some believe in no dieties, and some believe that all dieties are the same spirit, but with different facets to that spirit OR some believe in many dieties.

I only thought what I picked up from your guys' earlier posts. But I get that now.

Quote:

You're basically doing what some Christians do in fact...Approaching it in an 'either or neither' type of mindset. And unfortunately, trying to attach that into a meaning about 'what is Wiccan' is pretty useless.

I don't necessarily think that is a fair insinuation. I don't see how trying to understand what "Wiccan" means is necessarily demanding or misleading. I understand that Wicca has its different 'paths' and 'sects', as with any religion; but you are the one using "Wicca" in front of all the different sects, not me. Therefore, they should have at least something in common; I only assume that this thing in common is what defines "Wicca".

There are many different 'Christian' followings, and there are probably even more diverse paths of belief under the heading of "Buddhist", but they nearly all share something in common.

Quote:

The ONLY set thing about Wicca is the Rede...And even then not all Wiccans interpret that in the same way. LOL!

So then anyone who follows (in some interpretation or another) "That it harm none, do as thou wilt", can be considered Wiccan?

Quote:

What would make a Wiccan athiest different from an athiest in general, is that they believe through their own mind's power, they can effect the enviroment around them...Basically boils down to the theory of 'how much of the mind is used'...5%, 10%, half? And that the portion that isn't being used is stored up power that one can train themselves to use...In fact, they believe everyone, whether or not their Wiccan, can tap into that unused source to change things about their lives or enviroment..Even use it to change others. And they combine that by using nature to boost their awareness and perception.

They believe their minds are an untapped power source and through exercise and sheer will, they can physically make things change just using their minds...

This is a straight forward answer that I was looking for regarding 'Wiccan atheists'. But I would consider this a mystical belief, at least in the way you're putting it.

Quote:

That's about the simplist way I can explain it...As I said, you'd actually have to talk to a Wiccan that follows this specific way, and have them explain it themselves.

I figure as much. Though, I assumed that as someone who considers their self "Wiccan" you would have been able to provide a working definition of "Wiccan". Just as a Mahayana Buddhist and a Zen Buddhist, although containing very diverse differences in opinion and tradition, both can consider their selves under the heading of "Buddhist" and therefore in some fundamental way sharing a common belief.

AlicornsPrayer · 05-13-2008, 12:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Katczinsky

I figure as much. Though, I assumed that as someone who considers their self "Wiccan" you would have been able to provide a working definition of "Wiccan". Just as a Mahayana Buddhist and a Zen Buddhist, although containing very diverse differences in opinion and tradition, both can consider their selves under the heading of "Buddhist" and therefore in some fundamental way sharing a common belief.

LOL! I've already told you in my previous post...I'm not Wiccan. I'm explaining it to you as it's been explained to me by Wiccans I know. And unfortunately, they aren't members here except for TW.

Most Wiccans are eclectics...Meaning that their beliefs incorporate aspects from many other religions...Including there being Christian Wiccans who practice BOTH observation of nature within a Wiccan structure, but centered around also the teachings of Jesus...Just as there are Buddhist Wiccans, Shamantic Wiccans, and other diversities...

The 'meat' so to speak of Wicca, is it being a nature based practice that observes the cyles of the seasons, embraces both the feminine and masculine aspects of either in diety worship or self, as well as follows a code of ethics based off of the Rede...

The only thing that makes it hard for individuals such as yourself to understand it, is the fact of the different sects/individuals not having a central diety that all practitions observe, that is if they even observe a diety at all.

AlicornsPrayer · 05-13-2008, 12:51 AM

Found this for you Kat...

An introduction to Wicca

Quote:

Overview:

Wicca differs from many other religions by its emphasis on:

The feminine as being at least as important as the masculine,

The importance of preserving the environment,

Moral behavior as determined largely by the individual,

Positive attitudes towards human sexuality as a gift of the Goddess, and

The passage of the seasons.
A follower of Wicca is called a Wiccan. Wicca and other Neopagan religions are currently experiencing a rapid growth in the U.S., Canada, and Europe. In the U.S., the number of Wiccans is doubling about every 18 months. Growth is particularly obvious among some teenagers, who are rejecting what they feel is the autocracy, paternalism, sexism, homophobia, and insensitivity to the environment that forms part of some more traditional religions. Many North Americans of European descent, who are keen to discover their ancestral heritage, are also attracted to this religion.

Origin of Wicca:

Depending upon how you look at Wicca, it is either one of the newest or one of the oldest religions in the world:

Wicca is a recently created, Earth centered, Neopagan religion. The various branches of Wicca can be traced back to Gardnerian Witchcraft which was founded in the UK during the late 1940s.

Wicca is based on the symbols, seasonal days of celebration, beliefs and deities of ancient Celtic society. Added to this material were Masonic and ceremonial magickal components from recent centuries. In this respect, it is a religion whose roots go back almost three millennia to the formation of Celtic society circa 800 BCE.

About deities:

Depending upon one's point of view, Wicca can be considered a monotheistic, duotheistic, polytheistic, or atheistic religion:

Wicca is monotheistic: Some Wiccans recognize a single supreme being, sometimes called "The All" or "The One." The Goddess and God are viewed as the female and male aspects of this single deity.

Wicca is duotheistic (a.k.a. rarely as bitheistic): Wiccans often worship a female Goddess and a male God., often called the Lady and Lord.

Wicca is polytheistic: Wiccans recognize the existence of many ancient Gods and Goddesses, including Pan, Diana, Dionysius, Fergus, etc.

Wicca is atheistic: Some Wiccans view the God and Goddess as symbols, not living entities. Depending upon which definition of the term "Atheist" that you adopt, these Wiccans may be considered Atheists.

Terminology:

Terms relating to Wicca are confusing, as they are with so many other religions:

Wiccans often refer to themselves as Neopagans. The term "Neopagan" includes all faith groups which are based on attempted reconstruction of ancient, extinct religions. However, not all Neopagans are Wiccans. The umbrella term "Neopagan" includes followers of many other earth-centered faith traditions, like Druidism, and Asatru.

Wiccans often refer to themselves as Pagans. Unfortunately, this term has at least six different meanings, some of which are rather negative. "Pagan" is often used as a general-purpose snarl word to attack others. In its positive sense, Paganism includes Neopaganism as well as many other religions.

Some Wiccans consider Wicca and Witchcraft to be synonyms.

Others differentiate between Wicca, which they view to be a religion, and Witchcraft, which they perceive to be the practice of magick. Under this definition, Witchcraft is not a religion and thus can be performed by members of any religion.

Most Wiccans practice magick. However, some do not and concentrate on the spirituality of the Wiccan religion.

hot dragon · 05-13-2008, 03:46 AM

thanks for that, alicornsprayer. it is about the best introduction to paganism i have ever seen. most of it is just explaining that there is not one "correct" way of understanding the universe through pagan eyes. there are as many different interpretations of paganism as there are pagans. this is probably the reason people of other religions find it so difficult to grasp. they ask "what is it?", looking for pagan doctrine and rules, like the ones christians have, and find there are none.

katczinsky, it is great to see someone seeking information about this in a mature and intelligent way. at least it is clear now that it is not devil worshipping. if you are really interested, the best thing you could do is find out about a local pagan group and see if they are happy to talk to you and, if they feel it is appropriate, attend a ritual. you will learn far more by being there than you can by reading.

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