I can't answer why God does what He does. We can not comprehend perfection, nor infinity, nor why. He gave us free will. He doesn't waiver. He doesn't second guess. I worship God who is perfect; not imperfect and flawed. We can accept His offering or reject it. He doesn't need us, but wants us. Name another god who wants us to be with him or her.

He doesn't want us to suffer so bad. He came down and lived as us, was tempted in every way, and felt pain like we all do. Then He died a horrible death so that we could have a sacrifice for our sins. Name one other god that suffered and died for OUR benefit.

Animals don't have a spirit, so they don't go to heaven or hell. The Bible does state that we can not comprehend or even imagine what will be in heaven. All I know is that I want to go.

If I understand correctly, based on your threads, all religions are equal. Let us say that the entrance heaven and God is atop a mountain. Each religion is a different path. Each path leads to the top. What separates Christianity from other religion? It is that we are already there. I have faith that I don't have to struggle in blind faith if I will make it to the top. This might sound weird, but this is why I have accepted Christ as my Savior.

There is one other concept that separates Christianity from other religions. Hope. I hope that my faith in Christ will get me into heaven. The concepts of hope and faith are why I chose my faith. I have done many bad things in my life; many things that most people would call unforgivable to God. I'm glad that they don't answer for God, nor are God.

The world must have been extremely corrupt for the flood to occur.

But if we can't comprehend perfection or infinity, then how can we, as imperfect and finite as we are, see perfection and infinity in another being, and one that we have no physical proof of their existence at that?

Perhaps you don't understand what I was attempting to say.

Presumably a perfect world couldn't possibly become imperfect; due to (obviously) it's perfect nature. Likewise, your argument is ignoring the fact that God being all perfect, all powerful, and all knowing, etc., transcends time; in that he sees all that exists at any given moment. Therefore he would have not only created the world at the moment of creation but the world at all moments. He consequently created the imperfections of man, of Satan, and of everything you cite.

Yes, it is. I wasn't twisting anything; my interpretation was actually how I read it.

Or up to God, considering he created everything in advance.

You're not stating facts at all. I haven't seen any presented to me.

The only thing I've seen 'miraculously cure' people is the practice of medicine. It's interesting to see that whereas countless people are healed and cured everyday by medicine: those cases are just taken for granted in the light of the 'miraculous' few instances of pure ambiguous and unspecific cases of hearsay and superstition.

Invisible friends don't heal people; doctors do. I trust that you do not rely on God to heal your sick children, you actually take them to a doctor; because deep down inside you know that this faith healing rubbish is just that; bullshit.

The Bible, in it's entirety, cites the imperative to put to death those of disobedience in many cases. However if you subscribe to that modern flavor of Christianity that ignores the Old Testament except when it is politically convenient; I still consider an eternity of suffering to be a much worse punishment for those "offenses" than death. Any "God" that would subject his "loved ones" to such a punishment for anything, let alone something as petty (comparatively to the consequences) as any of the offenses you cite is a very evil and vindictive God that no man of sense would ever want to consider worshiping.

Open a history book. That should suffice.

Christianity, Islam, Judaism.

So it's about evening odds? Is that why Israel is justified in committing atrocities?

Now, I'm used to this. Random figures pulled out of the sky, falsely attributed to "in the name of atheism". I can't think of anyone who has murdered en masse "in the name of atheism". Nor, do I suspect, could you find a credible example.

Yes, those 'poor persecuted white anglo-saxon Christians'. Give me a break! Someone's starting to sound like they'd rather fit in at Stormfront than here 'defending the truth'.

[quote=Katczinsky;183780]Perhaps you don't understand what I was attempting to say.

Presumably a perfect world couldn't possibly become imperfect; due to (obviously) it's perfect nature. Likewise, your argument is ignoring the fact that God being all perfect, all powerful, and all knowing, etc., transcends time; in that he sees all that exists at any given moment. Therefore he would have not only created the world at the moment of creation but the world at all moments. He consequently created the imperfections of man, of Satan, and of everything you cite.



Yes, it is. I wasn't twisting anything; my interpretation was actually how I read it.



Or up to God, considering he created everything in advance.



You're not stating facts at all. I haven't seen any presented to me.

The only thing I've seen 'miraculously cure' people is the practice of medicine. It's interesting to see that whereas countless people are healed and cured everyday by medicine: those cases are just taken for granted in the light of the 'miraculous' few instances of pure ambiguous and unspecific cases of hearsay and superstition.

Invisible friends don't heal people; doctors do. I trust that you do not rely on God to heal your sick children, you actually take them to a doctor; because deep down inside you know that this faith healing rubbish is just that; bullshit.



The Bible, in it's entirety, cites the imperative to put to death those of disobedience in many cases. However if you subscribe to that modern flavor of Christianity that ignores the Old Testament except when it is politically convenient; I still consider an eternity of suffering to be a much worse punishment for those "offenses" than death. Any "God" that would subject his "loved ones" to such a punishment for anything, let alone something as petty (comparatively to the consequences) as any of the offenses you cite is a very evil and vindictive God that no man of sense would ever want to consider worshiping.



Open a history book. That should suffice.



Christianity, Islam, Judaism.



So it's about evening odds? Is that why Israel is justified in committing atrocities?



Now, I'm used to this. Random figures pulled out of the sky, falsely attributed to "in the name of atheism". I can't think of anyone who has murdered en masse "in the name of atheism". Nor, do I suspect, could you find a credible example.



Yes, those 'poor persecuted white anglo-saxon Christians'. Give me a break! Someone's starting to sound like they'd rather fit in at Stormfront than here 'defending the truth'.[/quote

Actually, something perfect can be corrupted. Adam and Eve were made perfect, but then disobeyed God. God doesn't make mistakes, only we do. He gave us free will to make choices. He is outside of time, and guides us through our lives. We can choose to follow Him or not.

No, you did twist my words. You attempt to make me trip over my words in order to prove your case. Obviously I meant that we ,UNLIKE God, are imperfect due to our sin nature. Don't play games.

You don't want to read everything; only the stuff that you can manipulate. I obviously believe that doctors heal through medicine. People are miraculously healed everyday. This has nothing to do with faith healing. God has a purpose for our lives.

What history book?

I have read on this thread, on many occasions how the big, bad church did this and that. Again, you manipulate words.

Actually, the figure is not random. Hitler thought that he could create a master race through killing off all thst did not exhibit the right genetics. Does evolution not teach survival through the fittest? Surely, you must see the connection. So, Hitler killed sick, lame, old, homosexual, Jew, then Christian.
Margaret Sanger, founder of planned parenthood, was well known for her favor of white people. Most planned parenthoods are found in black neighborhoods. America is 13% black. Abortions of blacks kids make up about 35% of all abortions in America. That is fact. Prove me wrong, I dare you.

You can claim figures and accuse the church of things from the past. So, where is your proof? There is just as much proof for my stance.

Now I'm a racist. How immature of you to make that claim. You don't even know what color my skin is. Today, millions of African Christians are displaced by Muslim extremists. So much for your white anglo saxon remark.

Why don't you come down from your ivory tower, oh holier than thou, and teach me the true way of life. You come to offend, yet you haven't told your idealistic way of life.

Do you know what the definition of perfect is??

And you continue to miss the point completely. I realize you understand that we have free will and 'we are doing the disobeying', that free will requires imperfection otherwise it would not be free. Thus free will is imperfect. And God, a perfect entity, supposedly created free will, something imperfect. Creating something imperfect is an act that is categorically impossible for a perfect being.

What case was that? It's not my fault the way your wrote your sentence was awkward. I tell you that I read it that way in actuality, and for you to tell me what I was thinking when I read what you wrote is absurd.

What did I manipulate? You stated that people are healed through miracles.

Anything that includes, but is not limited to, the Middle Ages, inquisition, crusades, witch hunt, manifest destiny, trans-Atlantic slave trade, and supposed God-sanctioned imperialism and eradication of an entire continent of people in the Americas, etc., etc.

If you say so.

And your complete and utter lack of any credible substantiation for such 'statistics' are really helping you establish this fact.


Oops, sorry, Hitler was a Christian with a fetish for the occult. Hardly "in the name of atheism" let alone related to anything near the category of "atheist" in the first place.

I don't feel like attempting to "prove you wrong" when you have done little to prove yourself right.

Though, I can hardly see how this is relevant anyway. You still haven't provided me with an example of someone committing mass murder "in the name of atheism".

If you'd like to think so.

Did I ever call you racist? Quit twisting my words and reading only what you manipulate!

Unlike you I don't pretend to claim to hold the ultimate truth which must be accepted. I'm not in an ivory tower but merely pointing out the rotten structure of your own. I could care less if you're offended.

cactusman;

and adam and eve were made in the image of God.

interesting. this was before they ate the apple. the act of trying to eat the apple was a sin.

so Man was perfect, an image of God. and Man sinned

presumably then, sin is a feature of God. being sinful is part of being perfect. part of Gods original design. odd that.

Adam and Eve were perfect, and they disobeyed God. so disobeying God is the act of a perfect being ?

harsh punishment for a single transgression, but then again, genocide is not beyond this God.

why have we ? is it justice to punish the children for the sins of the father ? did jesus agree with this or disagree ? and if he disagreed, does that mean God was wrong ?

probably the best explanation. the alternative seems to be that we are all being punished because Great great great great . . . great grandma Eve stole a magic apple. or perhaps this is just a parable ?

this perfect God created sinful adam and eve then punished their descendands forever. this is "perfection" ?

the australian aborigines have lots of creation stories about serpents spewing forth rivers, giants lying down to become mountain ranges, frogs singing until their voices went hoarse. these stories are great, but they are just stories. they make no sense when you look at them in any depth. genesis is the same. it simply makes no sense.

the universe is composed of all of us, every species living and extinct, the processes that drove their lives and deaths, every atom, every subatomic particle, every force that drives them, the very time and space that they fill.

this is the work of God, Goddess, whatever terms make sense to you. it is vast in space, time and complexity.

yes, this is beyond the grasp of any one person. it is beyond mine, and beyond yours, and beyond the grasp of the priests and scribes millenia ago who penned the first christian scriptures.

and it was beyond the minds of the earlier priests who wrote the pre christian scriptures, and those who first told their children stories of how the stars got there, and all those who over the centuries of human existence have asked "why?".

today we, collectively, have a better grasp of this reality than ever before, but the mysteries are no less deep. to think that the scribes of 2000 years ago had a complete understanding is as flawed as thinking we do today.

garyshers answer is presumably the first line, "faith is the substance of things hoped for".

perfection is a concept we can think about philosophically, but actually finding it in the real world has always eluded us. it requires faith to believe that it is possible, that it is there even though we have never experienced it.

once you actually have proof of something, you are no longer talking about issues of faith. if there was actually any evidence for any religion, it would cease to be a religion and become a phenomena of the universe.

So if a religion is all based on faith, then how can the people that believe that religion ever seriously espouse that their own religion is the only truth?