10 Questions Intelligent Christians MUST Answer - Page 30

AlicornsPrayer · 07-06-2008, 11:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cactusman

You have come to this thread b/c you are skeptic of Christianity. Again, it is a belief in God, not people. It is God centered not man centered. We are commanded to go out and tell people about our faith. We're not perfct, yet you probably talk about your faith with others. Don't you?

The very fact that you're posting proves that you are not Christian, which is your free choice. On the other hand, you being here shows me that you have a dislike for Christians, the faith, the church, etc.. Why are you here?

I'm a skeptic of Christianity? And you think this because???

Oh wait...You WANT to think I'm a skeptic of Christianity, because I don't swallow Gracie and your bible thumping techniques and the message of division ya'll embrace...

Sorry to burst your bubble, but I'm not a 'skeptic' of any religion, let alone Christianity. I don't PRACTICE Christianity personally...But the last thing I am is skeptical of it. I believe Christianity has alot to give to it's followers. I'd not deny them the spiritual comfort they recieve from their choosen beliefs...

What I do find distasteful though is when Christians like Gracie and yourself exclude every other religious practice (even within Christianity itself) that doesn't conform to your preferred observations of it and assume that 'holier then thou' attitude and 'my version is better then your version' mentality your types seem to embrace.

Talk about my faith? Yes I do when asked. But I don't shove my beliefs down other's throats as being 'the only belief to follow' or present it as 'superior' to another's beliefs. Because I don't embrace an ideology that there's one particular 'true' belief system. Just as people are different, that means how they approach the Divine or the Divine calls to them, is also different as well.

I also don't use my spiritual beliefs as a means to deny other's the right to live their lives as they want to. Nor do I preach my beliefs in the hope of 'converting' others to my spiritual path.

Can't say the same of ya'll though.

As to your other assumption that I hate Christians or Christianity? ROTFLMAOL!

No, not in the least. I'm very accepting of Christianity and those that follow Christianity when they apply their beliefs to themselves. In fact, I actually WORK WITH Christians at promoting religioius tolerance in my area. And our group deals with individuals like Gracie and yourself on a daily basis and we find the divisive message ya'll embrace distasteful.

I also attend Mass, attend church meetings and other religious functions with pleasure and enjoyment. Not to mention, do religious jewelry pieces for a number of people, including clergy and priests who I find inspiring and wonderful spiritual leaders both here in the US and in Canada...

So no darling...I get along very well within my community with Christianity and Christians alike. In fact, go to bat for Christians when they are unfairly treated by individuals like yourself simply cause they don't conform to your interpretation.

Oh and in case you're wondering if I believe in Jesus? Yes I do. I consider him a great man who was a messenger of the Divine. It's such a shame though that his words and message has been bastardized by fanatics and being used to divide people rather then bring them together in love and peace.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cactusman

She is defending her faith, like you defend your faith. What is the issue?
Don't mock people with remarks, like your last. Are you advocating that she commit suicide?

She's not defending anything. She's imagining attacks so she can claim she's defending herself.

Tell you a secret here...I don't defend my beliefs. There's no reason to.

Since I only apply my beliefs to myself, what another wants to think those beliefs are, or pretend to know what they are...It really causes me no harm. I'm more then happy to point out I'm not something they claim I am (like Grace's constantly calling me a Witch or Druid). But I don't defend those beliefs because my beliefs are within myself.

I will defend my rights though, to live my life as I wish to, as well as the rights of others, when individuals like yourself use your beliefs to invalidate another's beliefs or force your religion on us through laws.

As to my remark? Suicide? ROTFLMAOL! I'd think with Gracie's mentality, she'd live a few decades and enjoy the oppertunity to whine about how she's suffering while up on that cross.

Actually I have to give credit of the comment to my mother...As she's a very vocal Southern Baptist herself and finds Grace's constant 'my religion is better then yours' arguments pure hogwash. And every time I read her one of Gracie's whines about how 'she's being attacked for being a Christian'...My mother asks me if Gracie is still trying to crawl her way up on a cross...In fact, my mother is surprised Gracie hasn't got up on one yet and shoved Jesus off so she could claim she is him.

And that's what a CHRISTIAN thinks of the tatics Gracie and yourself use...I just happen to agree with it and passed along the message cause it does fit ya'll so well.

hot dragon · 07-06-2008, 11:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by garysher

Can I quote this to some of the pro-abortion and homosexual activists on here??

http://www.defendingthetruth.com/off...tml#post183828 (Is this now the gay debate board?)

hot dragon · 07-07-2008, 12:27 AM

Grace

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It takes great faith to believe that.

not really. it takes information about the nature of life, the nature of the universe, the elements that compose the universe and this planet. this information is all very consistent. true it has never been witnessed. so what ? eye witness is not the only form of evidence.

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What evidence? For the 10th time in this thread, we have never witnessed, nor replicated any such thing.

in the 1700s nobody had witnessed or replicated flying machines. was that proof that it was impossible ?

we have never witnessed nor replicated gravity either, but we would not be able to argue that it does not exist. we have witnessed the effects of gravity, and we can measure these accurately, predict things about it, develop an understanding of the universe that is consistent with these witnessed effects.

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Life cannot come from non-life, we have no reason what so ever to believe it can.

we have every reason to believe it can. and some capacity to describe it experimentally and historically. it isnt easy, it happened billions of years ago and time has erased a lot of the evidence.

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The only reason science is holding so strong to it, is cause then they would have to admit that they just dont know something.

science admits it does not know things all the time. far more than religion ever does. nobody is saying we know everything. but there are people who know an awful lot more than you or me.

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Even worse they would have to admit life on this earth came from life somewhere else.

that has been suggested as a possibility given the evidence we have and what we know of the universe. but this is just shifting the time frame. life at that place would have had to develop from inorganic stuff.

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So its possible as long as you take out any truth to it, such as life span?

it is possible if it is interpreted as a mathematical and statistical question. which is how it was posed. if you make it a social and biological question then it is a different question.

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I believe just the opossite. Those who refuse to believe in the possibility of God reject scientificaly based knowledge,

finally we hear that this is your belief. thank you.

however, God is not scientifically based. accepting science does not require rejecting god, and accepting god need not require rejecting science.

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such as the fact that life can only come from life.

you mean your belief that life can only come from life.

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That there is more than obvious design in every living creature on this earth.

1. there is obvious jerry rigging and redundancy and very poor design in many living things. we are very flawed, we carry millenia of evolutionary baggage as any basic biology book will explain.
2. evolution is a process that would be expected to result in life being adapted and appropriate for its circumstances. no surprise to see it. big surprise to see the ammount of poor design and flaws though.

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Such a advanced design that with all our inteligence we are not able to replicate any of it from raw elements.

1. we are able to replicate much of it.
2. if we cannot replicate it all, so what ? all that means is that our current level of technology is limited. the fact that human technology is not infinite is not proof of God.

TalkOrigins Archive: Exploring the Creation/Evolution Controversy

this is the best source i know of for anyone interested in this particular debate. all of the questions posed here have been posed on talk origins and answered better than i can.

cactusman · 07-07-2008, 06:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tadpole256

Hey Grace... While you are crying your little ass off and making a Martyr of yourself, have you ever considered the fact that you can start threads too!!! Got threads that invalidate or make a good point against atheism? POST THEM!!! Don't just whine, bitch cry and complain about other peoples posts. Post counter arguments, if you have any...

That's how this work toots... I can't keep doing all the leg work for you.

Cause unlike you I have no desire to spit on other peoples beliefs, and make threads bashing them. I just defend my faith when its attacked.

cactusman · 07-07-2008, 06:43 AM

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Originally Posted by AlicornsPrayer

Funny...But it even isn't 'most' Grace.

ONE PERSON doesnt' equate 'all' or 'most'...ONE PERSON Gracie...

And again, you can't count 'thanks' as 'attacking my beliefs' either...That's called EXAGGERATING and PLAYING MARTYR period. Nor does any of the replies made by other posters become 'most are attacking my beliefs' because only ONE PERSON has done that. All the others are DISAGREEING with YOUR POV, not Christianity nor attacking it or you.

Why don't you grow the Hades up? Instead of playing 'victim' and exaggerating what has been said by 'most' of the people here? Because your 'most' is ONE PERSON.

PERIOD.

Im not playing anything, Im just exposing the truth. There are 3 maybe 4 people here who share the same beliefs as I and the rest either stay outta this sec, or bash Christians. I dont care, heck its why I come here. I have fun defending my faith. If people talked about your faith here the way they do mine, you wouldnt even be here. Its just the truth, no matter how much you denie it.

cactusman · 07-07-2008, 07:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hot dragon

Grace

not really. it takes information about the nature of life, the nature of the universe, the elements that compose the universe and this planet. this information is all very consistent. true it has never been witnessed. so what ? eye witness is not the only form of evidence.

I never said we dont have information regarding the elements that make the universe, or even elements that make life, we just dont know how, or why. There is no reason to believe the first single cell was able to create its self. And thats what this all comes down to.

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in the 1700s nobody had witnessed or replicated flying machines. was that proof that it was impossible ?

That would be relevent if we were able to create life from raw elements. But we cant, so it isnt.

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we have never witnessed nor replicated gravity either, but we would not be able to argue that it does not exist. we have witnessed the effects of gravity, and we can measure these accurately, predict things about it, develop an understanding of the universe that is consistent with these witnessed effects.

None of this means life can create its self from raw elements, create its own DNA, RNA, reprduction system, circulatory system, ect ect ect ect, with no will or intelligence what so ever.

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we have every reason to believe it can. and some capacity to describe it experimentally and historically. it isnt easy, it happened billions of years ago and time has erased a lot of the evidence.

The only reason for some to believe it can, is cause there is life. Throughing a few billion years into the mix doesnt make the impossible possible.

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science admits it does not know things all the time. far more than religion ever does. nobody is saying we know everything. but there are people who know an awful lot more than you or me.

If you talk to the right scientist, they will admit they have no idea how the universe or life came to be. I talk to a few regularly.

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that has been suggested as a possibility given the evidence we have and what we know of the universe. but this is just shifting the time frame. life at that place would have had to develop from inorganic stuff.

Thats a great story, but in no way could ever come close to being proven. Its just as faith based as anything.

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it is possible if it is interpreted as a mathematical and statistical question. which is how it was posed. if you make it a social and biological question then it is a different question.

How? Why can life span be calculated?

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finally we hear that this is your belief. thank you.

however, God is not scientifically based. accepting science does not require rejecting god, and accepting god need not require rejecting science.

We arent talking God here, we are talking about what we know to be truth, scientificaly.

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you mean your belief that life can only come from life.

I dont see that as a belief. Its as close to fact as any fact. Life only comes from life, and it has never been proven other wise, not in a lab, not in nature. Im not saying we shouldnt explore that option, but in no way should we say its possible, till we witness it.
[/quote]

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1. there is obvious jerry rigging and redundancy and very poor design in many living things. we are very flawed, we carry millenia of evolutionary baggage as any basic biology book will explain.
2. evolution is a process that would be expected to result in life being adapted and appropriate for its circumstances. no surprise to see it. big surprise to see the ammount of poor design and flaws though.

Were is the evidence though? Were is the half man half ape? Half bird half fish? There is no proof evolution even happened other than adaptation.

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1. we are able to replicate much of it.

Hu? so they have made life, from raw elements, in a lab?

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2. if we cannot replicate it all, so what ? all that means is that our current level of technology is limited. the fact that human technology is not infinite is not proof of God.

You cant replicate any of it, without a living model.
[/quote]

cactusman · 07-07-2008, 10:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlicornsPrayer

I'm a skeptic of Christianity? And you think this because???

Oh wait...You WANT to think I'm a skeptic of Christianity, because I don't swallow Gracie and your bible thumping techniques and the message of division ya'll embrace...

Sorry to burst your bubble, but I'm not a 'skeptic' of any religion, let alone Christianity. I don't PRACTICE Christianity personally...But the last thing I am is skeptical of it. I believe Christianity has alot to give to it's followers. I'd not deny them the spiritual comfort they recieve from their choosen beliefs...

What I do find distasteful though is when Christians like Gracie and yourself exclude every other religious practice (even within Christianity itself) that doesn't conform to your preferred observations of it and assume that 'holier then thou' attitude and 'my version is better then your version' mentality your types seem to embrace.

Talk about my faith? Yes I do when asked. But I don't shove my beliefs down other's throats as being 'the only belief to follow' or present it as 'superior' to another's beliefs. Because I don't embrace an ideology that there's one particular 'true' belief system. Just as people are different, that means how they approach the Divine or the Divine calls to them, is also different as well.

I also don't use my spiritual beliefs as a means to deny other's the right to live their lives as they want to. Nor do I preach my beliefs in the hope of 'converting' others to my spiritual path.

Can't say the same of ya'll though.

As to your other assumption that I hate Christians or Christianity? ROTFLMAOL!

No, not in the least. I'm very accepting of Christianity and those that follow Christianity when they apply their beliefs to themselves. In fact, I actually WORK WITH Christians at promoting religioius tolerance in my area. And our group deals with individuals like Gracie and yourself on a daily basis and we find the divisive message ya'll embrace distasteful.

I also attend Mass, attend church meetings and other religious functions with pleasure and enjoyment. Not to mention, do religious jewelry pieces for a number of people, including clergy and priests who I find inspiring and wonderful spiritual leaders both here in the US and in Canada...

So no darling...I get along very well within my community with Christianity and Christians alike. In fact, go to bat for Christians when they are unfairly treated by individuals like yourself simply cause they don't conform to your interpretation.

Oh and in case you're wondering if I believe in Jesus? Yes I do. I consider him a great man who was a messenger of the Divine. It's such a shame though that his words and message has been bastardized by fanatics and being used to divide people rather then bring them together in love and peace.

She's not defending anything. She's imagining attacks so she can claim she's defending herself.

Tell you a secret here...I don't defend my beliefs. There's no reason to.

Since I only apply my beliefs to myself, what another wants to think those beliefs are, or pretend to know what they are...It really causes me no harm. I'm more then happy to point out I'm not something they claim I am (like Grace's constantly calling me a Witch or Druid). But I don't defend those beliefs because my beliefs are within myself.

I will defend my rights though, to live my life as I wish to, as well as the rights of others, when individuals like yourself use your beliefs to invalidate another's beliefs or force your religion on us through laws.

As to my remark? Suicide? ROTFLMAOL! I'd think with Gracie's mentality, she'd live a few decades and enjoy the oppertunity to whine about how she's suffering while up on that cross.

Actually I have to give credit of the comment to my mother...As she's a very vocal Southern Baptist herself and finds Grace's constant 'my religion is better then yours' arguments pure hogwash. And every time I read her one of Gracie's whines about how 'she's being attacked for being a Christian'...My mother asks me if Gracie is still trying to crawl her way up on a cross...In fact, my mother is surprised Gracie hasn't got up on one yet and shoved Jesus off so she could claim she is him.

And that's what a CHRISTIAN thinks of the tatics Gracie and yourself use...I just happen to agree with it and passed along the message cause it does fit ya'll so well.

You obviously don't know me. What tactics do I use that are offensive? This thread attacks my beliefs, so I defend. I read alot bad mouthing from you. I read alot of whining from you about Grace. You obviously don't read the Bible, so you're not much of a believer.

The old Laodicean church movement. I can hear Rodney King in the background, "Can't we all just get along?" The Bible states that, b/c you are neither hot nor cold, but lukewarm, Jesus will vomit you out of His mouth.

If you are not a skeptic, then why are you here posting? You are skeptic and want to find truth or just want to bash someone else's religion. I can't speak for Grace or anyone else, but Grace and I are defending our faith.

hot dragon · 07-08-2008, 11:28 PM

Grace;

Quote:

I never said we dont have information regarding the elements that make the universe, or even elements that make life, we just dont know how, or why.

we know a lot of the how. the why is a philosophical issue, not a scientific one at this point in time.

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There is no reason to believe the first single cell was able to create its self. And thats what this all comes down to.

it didnt. it was created from earlier more simple cells, or something very much like a cell, which was created from more simple things still. and so on. and at the end of the day, the beginning is something so simple it is no more than a large molecule. and this we can create very easily.

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That would be relevent if we were able to create life from raw elements. But we cant, so it isnt.

you miss the point. we cannot or have not, YET. in 1700 we could not make flying machines, but that merely illustrated the limitation of current technology. it did not prove that flying machines were impossible to make.

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None of this means life can create its self from raw elements, create its own DNA, RNA, reprduction system, circulatory system, ect ect ect ect, with no will or intelligence what so ever.

life can create itself from simpler things. simple life can evolve into complex life. simple chemicals can evolve into complex chemicals. at the interface there are complex chemicals that are able to replicate themselves, chemicals that behave like life forms.

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The only reason for some to believe it can, is cause there is life. Throughing a few billion years into the mix doesnt make the impossible possible.

it isnt impossible, it is just improbable, but when you have a whole planet, multiple environments, appropriate chemicals and billions of years, a lot of things, improbable and otherwise, will happen.

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If you talk to the right scientist, they will admit they have no idea how the universe or life came to be. I talk to a few regularly.

thats because they are good scientists. if you talk to the right christian, they will say the same. if you talk to the wrong christian, they will tell you they know the truth, and anyone who disagrees with them is wrong.

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Thats a great story, but in no way could ever come close to being proven. Its just as faith based as anything.

it could be proven if we were able to locate the original source of such life and demonstrate how it was transported here. remember you cannot use our current level of technology to define what is impossible or not. anyway, it is no more than a suggestion, based on evidence that is consistent, but admittedly thin. it is hardly something with widespread agreement.

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We arent talking God here, we are talking about what we know to be truth, scientificaly.

this question shows your lack of understanding of science very clearly.

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I dont see that as a belief. Its as close to fact as any fact. Life only comes from life, and it has never been proven other wise, not in a lab, not in nature. Im not saying we shouldnt explore that option, but in no way should we say its possible, till we witness it.

life today comes from life only because it is the easiest way for nature to do it. evolution is a quicker process than abiogenesis.

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Were is the evidence though? Were is the half man half ape? Half bird half fish? There is no proof evolution even happened other than adaptation.

evolution would not predict any of these things. evolution would predict transitional species and a blurriness between phyla and a level of shared genetic material that parrallels a species' evolution. this is exactly what we see.

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Hu? so they have made life, from raw elements, in a lab?

no. we have made the raw materials for life from individual atoms. we have made DNA and protiens that function indistinguishably from life and can be incorporated into living things and continue to function. but why the obsession with our current technology ? lots of things we have not done are possible, we just havent done them.

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You cant replicate any of it, without a living model.

we can replicate lots of it. generally there is no point in a lab making a life form from scratch, there are enough life forms already. it would be technically difficult, expensive and without any benefit other than philosophical. not much in it for a lab.

07-09-2008, 06:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hot dragon

Grace;

we know a lot of the how. the why is a philosophical issue, not a scientific one at this point in time.

The only thing we know about the "how" is what we can observe. All else is speculation.

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it didnt. it was created from earlier more simple cells, or something very much like a cell, which was created from more simple things still. and so on. and at the end of the day, the beginning is something so simple it is no more than a large molecule. and this we can create very easily.

But you still have the gigantic problem of never witnessing these molecules form into anything. Its a huge leap of faith to say that it can, AGAIN, its never been observed in a lab or in nature.

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you miss the point. we cannot or have not, YET. in 1700 we could not make flying machines, but that merely illustrated the limitation of current technology. it did not prove that flying machines were impossible to make.

All Im saying is lets cross that bridge when we come to it. Instead of pretending that we already have by teaching this as near fact. Its not even close to near fact, according to scientific law.

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life can create itself from simpler things. simple life can evolve into complex life. simple chemicals can evolve into complex chemicals. at the interface there are complex chemicals that are able to replicate themselves, chemicals that behave like life forms.

Chemicals that behave like life forms? In what way?

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it isnt impossible, it is just improbable, but when you have a whole planet, multiple environments, appropriate chemicals and billions of years, a lot of things, improbable and otherwise, will happen.

Till proven through observation, it is impossible.

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thats because they are good scientists. if you talk to the right christian, they will say the same. if you talk to the wrong christian, they will tell you they know the truth, and anyone who disagrees with them is wrong.

They are good scientists, that are refuting what you are saying. They fully admit they have no Idea how the mystery of life came about, but you, who are not a scientist, claim you do. Hmmm

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it could be proven if we were able to locate the original source of such life and demonstrate how it was transported here. remember you cannot use our current level of technology to define what is impossible or not. anyway, it is no more than a suggestion, based on evidence that is consistent, but admittedly thin. it is hardly something with widespread agreement.

I thank you for your honesty.

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this question shows your lack of understanding of science very clearly.

It wasnt really a question, but more of a statment, and it had nothing to do with science.

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life today comes from life only because it is the easiest way for nature to do it. evolution is a quicker process than abiogenesis.

Life comes from life, cause as far as we know (what we have observed) its the only way. Again, lets cross that bridge when we come to it.

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evolution would not predict any of these things. evolution would predict transitional species and a blurriness between phyla and a level of shared genetic material that parrallels a species' evolution. this is exactly what we see.

It isnt clearly what everyone see's, including scientists. And any examples of this can often be refuted.

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no. we have made the raw materials for life from individual atoms. we have made DNA and protiens that function indistinguishably from life and can be incorporated into living things and continue to function. but why the obsession with our current technology ? lots of things we have not done are possible, we just havent done them.

Yes, we have done all this, through intelligence, and design.

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we can replicate lots of it. generally there is no point in a lab making a life form from scratch, there are enough life forms already. it would be technically difficult, expensive and without any benefit other than philosophical. not much in it for a lab.

There is no point in silencing every critic? Bet your ass if they could, they would.

hot dragon · 07-10-2008, 11:47 AM

Grace;

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The only thing we know about the "how" is what we can observe. All else is speculation.

1. what we observe is speculation too.
2. does this apply to christian doctrines ? we did not observe the miracles or the ressurection, so it is speculation. all we have is ancient eye witness accounts but then again we have eye witness accounts of UFOs and bigfoot.

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But you still have the gigantic problem of never witnessing these molecules form into anything. Its a huge leap of faith to say that it can, AGAIN, its never been observed in a lab or in nature.

why the obsession with witnesses ? we cannot witness the passage of xrays either, or the force of gravity. can i argue that they do not exist ?

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All Im saying is lets cross that bridge when we come to it. Instead of pretending that we already have by teaching this as near fact. Its not even close to near fact,

evolution is the centrepiece of biology. to not teach it in science is like not teaching counting in math.

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according to scientific law.

exactly what law do you refer to here ?

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Chemicals that behave like life forms? In what way?

chemicals that can replicate themselves. in the same way life replicates itself.

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Till proven through observation, it is impossible.

i guess it is also impossible to land a woman on the moon. and it was impossible for anyone to make a flying machine in 1700. until someone did the impossible.

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They are good scientists, that are refuting what you are saying.

rubbish

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They fully admit they have no Idea how the mystery of life came about,

but they have good and testable scientific theories.

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but you, who are not a scientist, claim you do. Hmmm

um, my scientific training is excellent. and i do not claim to know everything. but i do make the claim that it is definitively possible, that there is evidence that it could happen (laboratory and field evidence) and that it is a testable scientific proposition. it is consistent with everything else we know about life, throughout its long history and consistent with what we know about the creation of the planet, solar system and the universe.

none of this applies to any version of creationism. it is the quintessential non-science.

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I thank you for your honesty.

likewise. i believe you are being honest in that you believe what you say. but you are talking about topics on which you are not well informed.

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It isnt clearly what everyone see's, including scientists. And any examples of this can often be refuted.

untrue. they are often claimed to have been refuted.

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Yes, we have done all this, through intelligence, and design.

our individual lives and actions are nothing to do with evolution. that is the silliest straw man you could have possibly come up with.

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There is no point in silencing every critic? Bet your ass if they could, they would.

1. like hell it would silence any critic. it would just me more ammunition for the "see, it needs intelligence to make it" crowd.
2. it would probably not be of much use except academically and philosophically (and not much even then). it would be enormously expensive and time consuming and most research these days is industry sponsored. until it is commercially viable, nobody with the capacity to do it will have a reason to.

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